One is not a crowd
Just one market maker signed for quoting options on Brunel and Ten Cate, looks like All Options needs some brownie points at Euronext.
Two is company, three is a crowd. Probably some deep truth in this saying, but one thing is for sure : one is definitely not a crowd. Euronext is launching new option classes often. The market makers will quote all the stuff and guarantee a tight market – those firms take the real risk.
Only one market maker
Euronext wasn’t able to find more than just one liquidity provider for the new options on Brunel (BI) and Ten Cate (TCT) – only All Options subscribed for the role of quoting these options. None of the other firms showed any interest at all in the quoting obligations. One market maker is not a crowd, and the liquidity provider auction doesn’t look very healthy this way.
Not logical
There’s something strange here. There isn’t much money to be made in Brunel and Ten Cate options, and still All Options takes on the quoting responsibility. The firm has seriously axed their trading staff, and won’t have many traders left with the time to quote this deserted options. Second, All Options didn’t sign up for the introduction of the options on AEX component Aperam – which is mainly quoted by Caerus Trading, along with a little 323 and Nino. It doesn’t make sense to sign up for Brunel and skip Aperam.
All Options short on brownie points
Apparently Euronext is able to pull a few strings and make All Options sign up for liquidity provider whenever the exchange needs it. Wasn’t necessary in Aperam, but in Brunel and Ten Cate the exchange would have lost its face. My bet is All Options is a little short on brownie points at Beursplein 5, and shows up as the cavalry when Euronext needs it.
This is not news…. try this instead: “How much did IMC pay to buy the software company Valescom in 2010?”
And how much did Flow Traders pay for the other software company last year?
Much more interesting topic~!
New topic please.
what is the name of the software company that Flow bought?
Non Of Your Damn Business LLP
All Options has a problem with Euronext for not quoting their PMM licenses last december. Was difficult without traders..
Flow bought Tradesense.
‘This is not news…. try this instead: “How much did IMC pay to buy the software company Valescom in 2010?”
And how much did Flow Traders pay for the other software company last year?
Much more interesting topic~!’
Do you have the answers for the above ?
‘All Options has a problem with Euronext for not quoting their PMM licenses last december. Was difficult without traders..’
Life is all about options ..
What is the current head count at All Options? Except for Curacao all foreign branches have been shut down.
huh, Zug as well?
poor Patrick
No worries, Patrick is named as the new CEO of Mr. Pickwick! Burgers half price on expiry friday!
The guy is okay
only one at Timberhill who understood what he was doing, back on the tradingfloor
He went from Timber Hill to All Options Helvetia (Zug). His first rule at AOI became: “we don’t hire traders from Timber Hill” (for lack of competence).
He is arrogant and the megalomaniac office of AO in Zug and its demise taught Allard and Patrick quite a lesson. Nice one.
‘we don’t hire traders from Timber Hill’
i thought TH didnt have human traders, only automated systems and trading system watchmen ..
so the Zug-department is really gone now?
3:15 regardless … point is, he was no more than a watchman (by your definition) himself
I think they made a good decision by becoming PMM in these classes.
I think it’s gonna save the company
‘What is the current head count at All Options’
i think everybody is fired now, so nobody is complainting abt AO, everybody is fired, so nobody knows the headcount anymore >!!
All Opgedoekt
All Optilt
All Optater
What happened to Gert de Rover? He was/is also pretty arrogant in Zug, how they would be going places and set up this huge trading room at Metalli in Zug for truckloads of money. What a loser.
Gert is okay
only one at Goed Gedaan who understood what he was doing, back on the tradingfloor
P., could you land your group of mediocre at best traders another job? You should have job offers piling up on your desk as your management skills should be highly sought after.
they guy who planned the big office in Zug was either Gert or Allard…Please check your sources before speaking.
‘heard that he cheated on his wife during a AO party’
you wishing it was you who had got all the option for cheating ?
Taking about cheating on his wife – any news about VDM/Curvalue Onno?
Stop prying into our private lives!
haha, you didnt mind invading your shareholder’s private lives when u devoured off their company
poor patrick ??? he must have realized that he was ridiculously overpaid for playing political games and must have been clever enough to set some money aside
they sacked patrick at Allard Options ? must be crowded at PAN Asset Management HR now that all ex-all options and ex-vdm ( Herr Dr Pneumann ) are trying to get a job there, the good thing is, their office is closer to Pickwick
Why was Pneumann fired? BP?
has Pneumann left Liquid? So the rumors of a large BP loss were true I guess.
Pan is considering hiring Herr Doktor ??? I thought they were smart guys, although they also hired Mister Camembert, ex-vdm
http://www.panassetmanagement.com/content/view/22/29/
… their office is closer to Pickwick
what’s this PickWick thing?
a practical joke perhaps??
PickWick is an Irish Pub in Zug where traders – mostly pilots from Timber Hill – meet
Who is the Camembert guy? Did he also blow money at VDM like Pneumann?
This thread is so full of retarded, sh!t slinging bullshit by anonymous cowards!
I find it very entertaining, and sometimes even informative!
‘has Pneumann left Liquid? So the rumors of a large BP loss were true I guess.’
rumour 1 + rumour 2 = completely random conclusion
‘This thread is so full of retarded, sh!t slinging bullshit by anonymous cowards!’
stop complainting and join in the fun,
‘I find it very entertaining, and sometimes even informative!’
something is better than nothing !
rumour 1 is a fact
rumour 2 is something I don’t want to talk about
OK, the guy complaining about BS has a point.
The facts are:
Neumann blew 5 million EUR in VW when he was employed at VDM (luckily for his colleagues he was able to cover a substantial part of it with his previous profits. If VW had happened at the beginnig of the year, Frank – by his own admission – would have walked out and left his colleagues with the major loss. A real team player.)
Neumann was fired at Liquid because he did not live up to the expectations Liquid had in him.
heard some cunt lost some money on the nikkei
i heard he is from a well respected family
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Hendrik_Neumann
‘C & G’
man stop impersonating,
‘Neumann was fired at Liquid because he did not live up to the expectations Liquid had in him.’
shocker !
‘heard some cunt lost some money on the nikkei’
if nobody lost money, it be difficult to make money off these morons,
http://www.amsterdamBS.com the lower the VIX the more BS appears !
‘i heard he is from a well respected family
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Hendrik_Neumann‘
you’ll be able to find this sort of shit for lot of germans, so you wanna keep up with your stupid extrapolation ?
I never lose money as I am too scared to trade but dont tell anyone that I cheat on my wife with some cunt on the Nikkei and also the BP trader at Liquid who has such a large skew position that it makes me wet and floods the trading room sometimes.
I am SURE they did their maths and realised that they were paying too much for their services so it was cheaper to buy the firm! nice
looks kind of nice!
http://www.pickwick.ch/zug/gallery.php
‘I am SURE they did their maths and realised that they were paying too much for their services so it was cheaper to buy the firm! nice’
you can never put a price for company, you can just guess, so dont be so SURE ..
PAN? Who is PAN? MM in Zug?
Yes, it is a small company in Zug, not worth mentioning.
Why does Pneumann not start becoming a professional computer player? Reading the blog (previous posts), I get the impression that he was a hybrid between part-time market maker and part-time computer player for several years. Does he (also) play online poker?
i love each time i make money vs the dutch market makers quoting in the screen…as the blog is probing, most of dutch people are so ignorant, arrogant and big month
‘i love each time i make money vs the dutch market makers quoting in the screen…’
you are making money .. how do you know they are losing money ?
talk abt ignorance, arrogance and big mouth, wat an irony >!!
‘Why does Pneumann not start becoming a professional computer player? ‘
a 50 year old guy competing against teens in computer play-offs ?!
29th 2.31 examine your motives please!
I would like to be a marketmaker
which company should I apply?
I’ve got a list from the exchange
is GDT any good?
being CMM PHI, ING, RD
next time, post the following, additionally,
Member name Global Derivatives Trading Amsterdam BV
Mnemonic GLN
Market Derivatives
Membership Amsterdam
Address
Plaats 31a
2513 AD ‘s-Gravenhage
The Netherlands
Phone: 0031 70 737 0045
Fax 0031 70 737 0046
Email mail@gdta.nl
Member web site http://
Updated : 26/03/11
you see their email address, mail them your resume and if they call you for interview then ask for feedback, .. ‘IF’ …
‘I would like to be a marketmaker
which company should I apply?’
all of them, if you get multiple offers, then ask for feedback, … ‘IF’…
PAN is a MM in Zug? Can’t find them on Eurex Homepage.
It’s a prop/ arbitrage firm from Sweden, I believe.
You cannot find PAN on the Eurex Homepage because they do not have an own membership. As said before, they are not worth mentioning.
‘Why does Pneumann not start becoming a professional computer player? ‘
Did he not mention he has a Phd
Anyone here made $ from GS Nikkei warrants fuck-up in HK?
Or anyone knows if IMC/Optiver made?
what was the fuck up ? They were quoting wrong ?
Nasdaq launches counter bid to buy out Euronext…….!!!
Timber is laying off trading floor staff, who would have thought that a few months ago ? Any more news from there ?
Somebody is doing the Dividend game in ZURN for deep-in-the money call again. I think is forbidden now? MM against MM?
then somebody has found a legit way of doing the div tax arb .. i am pretty sure nobody is breaking the law and going to jail for it !
Why is there always so much hating towards All Options on this blog? I mean i’d understand it if AO were doing really well, but they appear to be on the verge of going under.
Also, what is the dividend game? writing a bunch of call options with a high intrinsic value just prior to a dividend announcement? and why the hell would it be illegal?
anonymous
April 1st, 2011 at 7:09 am
Anyone here made $ from GS Nikkei warrants fuck-up in HK?
Or anyone knows if IMC/Optiver made?
no one that i know of. pretty funny when they issue warrants multiplying by the excahnge rate rather than dividing.
‘Why is there always so much hating towards All Options on this blog? I mean i’d understand it if AO were doing really well, but they appear to be on the verge of going under. ‘
they are in europe where people are socialists .. they are not used to capitalistic boom and bust, up and down .. they are happy at some low constant .. AO was very much a boom and bust, people are not happy getting fucked over on AO’s way down .. also probably they were not probably not treating their employees correctly and on top making strategic errors like Sean .. what a disasterous move ..
‘Also, what is the dividend game?’
basically, the dividend has 40% tax liability .. so you can transfer the dividend who has no liability through delta one derivatives .. this can be transferred at 20% cost, thus saving 20% ..
‘why the hell would it be illegal?’
i havent read the rule .. but if it says you cant strip dividend like above, then its breaking rules and so its illegal ..
‘no one that i know of’
is it sure that GS lost money .. somebody in that case would have made money in that case ?
@9:19: thanks for the info; so it’s basically replicating a short stock position using a short call? I’m gonna look it up in my Hull textbook
@9:17: yeah that explains part of it, it does seem like AO expanded too aggressive for its own good.
Somebody tell me though, are traders just as hateful in real life as they are in these comments, or are most of them just anonymous internet tough guys? It kind of makes me think twice about a career in trading.
“are traders just as hateful in real life as they are in these comments”
No, there’s only one dickhead here. Everyone hopes that he will just fuck off and die.
‘No, there’s only one dickhead here. Everyone hopes that he will just fuck off and die.’
it was weekend, you should stop being so cheap and go pay 50 euros to get laid .. it’ll help you feel better and not be so bitter ..
‘It kind of makes me think twice about a career in trading.’
there is no free lunch on wall street son ..
‘I’m gonna look it up in my Hull textbook’
its not there as the book avoids talking abt tax implications ..
Its synthetic replication of stock using long itm call + short otm put .. so using this synthetic, the long dividend position is transfered on from tax liable fund to tax non-liable derivatives dealer at say half the tax liability ..
http://life.hereisthecity.com/2011/04/04/working-part-time-whats-the-catch/
‘no one that i know of’
is it sure that GS lost money .. somebody in that case would have made money in that case ?
somebody definately made off this. I heard one rumour GS was down ~5m
check out some of the warrants on your bloomberg: 10073, 10074, 10075, 10076
And since you can’t short sell warrants, its likely the issuer (ie GS) was the seller of most of them as they rallied between 2-8x
“..is it sure that GS lost money .. somebody in that case would have made money in that case..”
Impossible. We have clearly established on these forums that derivatives are NOT a zero sum game.
are you on drugs?
they farked up the FX translation. Do you really reckon they managed to avoid a loss?
they issued a call option at 7c
within a few hours it was trading 73c
over that period the market was flat to small down
they lost cash and are now the laughing stock of the market
or at least they were until you posted that drivel at 3:22
clearly the irony is lost on you two bozos
‘Impossible. We have clearly established on these forums that derivatives are NOT a zero sum game.’
okay, if thats what you understood off the whole debate ..
‘are you on drugs?
they farked up the FX translation. Do you really reckon they managed to avoid a loss?’
i dont know what the fuck happened, so calm the fuck down ..
‘they issued a call option at 7c
within a few hours it was trading 73c’
how are the mistrade rules like .. this looks like maybe OTC, can the trade be cancelled if there is an obv mistake like this ?
according to euronext Bruce Lee took over from Jan Bos @ 323 trading
not surprising, Jan Bos seems to have lost plot long back,
had a look at the numbers on that GS error
assuming the option is worth the last trade price 73c then the P&L is about $3.3m – having said that i have no idea what it was worth. One of the banks in HK apparently came up with a P&L calc of $50m. Warrant is now suspended. Am going to ask a broker to get a market from GS warrant desk tomorrow….
yep, do it and let us know.
10073 went from 5c to 73c, thats like 15x .. surely there must be mistrade rule or something like that ? its not like a fat finger trade during middle of trading that few offers got lifted or is it like that ?
http://www.etnet.com.hk/www/eng/warrants/realtime/quote_iv.php?code=10073
this went on for 2 weeks, nice,
so how the fuck did they lose 5mio? looks like it traded at around 5-6c for 2 weeks then some small volume at 73c. as you cant net short them i would expect only very few longs sold it out there, couldnt have cost them too much
please dont tell me those clowns left the warrant quoter on during the earthqake week selling options at 25 vol or therabouts. for 2 weeks. this is absolutely priceless. 2 fucking weeks. was the guy drunk the whole time? there was a post about mms raping bank traders when vol moves only a few months ago, too funny.
GS did suffer last year’s in flash crash/Europe volatility surge for its eq deriv desk, when it was caught short vol.. so its not surprising .. mm are long vol essentially as the mispricing are high during that time and they are able to arb the actual vol/realized vol using mispriced straddles .. thats what they do, sit whole day, adjusting params .. banks’ desk are so heavily focussed on client activity, that prop positions are difficult to get in and out .. prop desk itself are being shuttered .. its not all that funny, its the way things are .. nothing a bank trader can do ..
its like a bank trader would find an mm funny just because his constant param setting can be akin to jerking off the whole day long .. but its not .. its mm’s job to constantly set param to have high sharp ratio.. nothing funny there ..
Two colleagues were fired for this. But it actually was our IT department that was responsible for this f.up
can u elaborate more pls ? didnt know a GS warrant trader was a reader here !
and that too from hk ?
it didn’t go on for 2 weeks – only the one day to blow up. When a warrant expires, they simply do a new issue using the same RIC – so while it looks like a long history of trading, that was a different security
I was actually on instant messenger all day talking with my fellow bank traders about how MMs are a bunch of no talent hacks.
We then got together and had a meeting. Kinda like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoIvd3zzu4Y
When I got back to the desk, I was down a lot of dough for some reason.
So that night I went out and stabbed a homeless person and payed some prostitutes to shit on my chest to feel better about myself.
It was awesome.
anonymous
April 5th, 2011 at 2:51 pm
so how the fuck did they lose 5mio? looks like it traded at around 5-6c for 2 weeks then some small volume at 73c. as you cant net short them i would expect only very few longs sold it out there, couldnt have cost them too much
what does it matter u can’t short them? GS (as the issuer) is the only one who can. Someone came through and bought offers from 7c up, and then sold them back to GS at almost a dollar.
Thats how they lost cash..
3.55m Mr Ebonics at it again. Look at the link from 1.39pm and you will notice that GS only bought 50k at 73 cents.
For fucks sake people, it’s not that hard – the 5 mill or whatever is a theoretical profit, none of it has been locked in. GS didn’t buy any at the inflated price.
‘so while it looks like a long history of trading, that was a different security’
was that different security also mispriced 15x ?
‘the 5 mill or whatever is a theoretical profit, none of it has been locked in. ‘
am not aware of warrants or their workings, is there any other way to realise the profits without dealer bidding for it, now or in longer term ?
is dealer suppose to give two way markets on the secondary markets for their str pdts ?
“Big Bank Trader, April 6th, 2011 at 12:24 am
I was actually on instant messenger all day talking with my fellow bank traders about how MMs are a bunch of no talent hacks. ”
Haha. Instant messenger. Come back and post your witless opinions after you at least rank a bloomberg terminal you small time POS.
dimwit, it’s obvious bs,
oh, you mean he didnt go out and stab someone either? just how dim are you is the question.
10:08
Bloomberg has an instant messenger. Many equity derivatives traders use it.
…like its a big accomplishment to have a Bloomberg terminal… lol
“am not aware of warrants or their workings, is there any other way to realise the profits without dealer bidding for it, now or in longer term ?”
Well, someone else can bid the warrants at the higher price, but that’s quite risky given that GS has a pretty strong legal position in saying that it was an obvious error.
The only other way to realise the profit is to take them to expiry, and force GS to expire them according to the letter of the product statement. Although that is basically the same legal position as above.
And the way I understand it is that the warrant has been mispriced by a factor of 121 (HKD/JPY * HKD/JPY), which values it at about 7.20 against the market price of 0.06.
There were about 54 million warrants outstanding before the error was picked up, so GS has a liability of roughly 54m * 7.14, or $50m USD.
(I’m assuming here that the market price of 0.06 is 6 cents HKD)
“mm are long vol essentially as the mispricing are high during that time and they are able to arb the actual vol/realized vol using mispriced straddles”
Can you expand on this some more? I want to know how this is meant to be an arb. It just sounds like you are saying “vol is high, let’s sell straddles, there’s no way it’s going to move that much”.
‘you mean he didnt go out and stab someone either?’
so one dimwit talking to another dimwit, nice,
‘like its a big accomplishment to have a Bloomberg terminal… lol’
prime eg of small dick syndrome,
people posting these comments should post their dick sizes, you would be surprised to find the average to be exceeding 9inch,
‘force GS to expire them according to the letter of the product statement’
any historical precedence of an obvious mistake being reversed, OTC trades have obv been nulled but the loosing side wasnt evil squid GS in those,
‘mm are long vol essentially as the mispricing are high during that time’
long vol means you make money when vol goes up .. mm are similar, they dont make money because they are actually sitting on long vol position .. but when vols are high, there are more volumes, more mispricings, more daily movement in underlying and vol .. mm are liquidity providers, so they make money on volumes, movement, stat arb, execution alpha.. so they are pretty long vol, i think they should always sell some premium as a hedge, but because of unlimited liability on selling options, this is not undertaken,
unlimited liability on call option, of course,
haha small dick syndrome just because someone is provided with bloomberg as part of their job.
just like the truck driver doesn’t get hyper excited because his work lets him drive a truck.
‘haha small dick syndrome just because someone is provided with bloomberg as part of their job.’
if he starts posting on the blog abt his truck, yah shows the dick to be longer than 9 inches,
right. and the comment at 10:08 wasn’t “shows the dick to be longer than 9 inches” ?
Is/was the open interest in the Nikkei warrant really 54 Million? I’m not sure of the multiplier, how many ETOs is that? Who was the lucky owner??
‘Haha. Instant messenger. Come back and post your witless opinions after you at least rank a bloomberg terminal you small time POS.’ is
i think this one beats 10 inch at least ..
looks like i was wrong and i am prepared to admit it. so many witty comments….. 🙂
‘Is/was the open interest in the Nikkei warrant really 54 Million? ‘
it could have been 20mm or 100mm, based on counterparty’s conviction and capital/risk profile,
‘looks like i was wrong and i am prepared to admit it. so many witty comments…..’
yours top the list ..
“was the open interest in the Nikkei warrant really 54 Million?”
If you check the link that was posted, and tally up the “LP Buy” and “LP Sell” columns you’ll see that the net result was that they sold 54m warrants.
Their legal position I think is quite strong, given the convention in the market for other warrants, and the fact that the specific warrant had a trading history that implied a division by the exchange rate and not a multiplication.
Warrants also have an “IPO” price as well, and that would be good evidence to imply a division rather than multiplication.
In the end, I think the buyer will actually lose out (or perhaps be compensated?). There were only 4m warrants traded on the day, and let’s say the average was halfway between 6c and 70c, then they have dropped about $160k USD. I think whoever found this error has gone off half-(ten-inch)-cocked.
there is no way buyer is going to loose, no court in right mind could pass a judgement where the buyer losses against stupid seller .. there might be zero gains, but no losses for sure,
All Goldman Sachs has to do is go to the Federal Reserve and whine for a bit and then Bernanke will credit their account for the full loss (and then some). Problem solved.
9:06 = utter nonsense … if the buy is cancelled (declared a mistrade), the original buyer can end up losing money on his (now exposed) hedge … good lucking seeking compensation for that!
if the buy is cancelled why would the hedge not be cancelled at the same time ??! how stupid can you be ?
that has to be your dumbest comment yet … how many reasons do you need? hedge could have
been performed on another exchange, against an unrelated party (who doesn’t wish to see his
trade cancelled), buyer was not obliged to hedge, discretion wrt hedging … name me one good
reason why the hedge SHOULD be cancelled!? have you ever actually traded or is all of your ‘wisdom’
derived from books / wiki??
was it a hedge or was the original warrant sold back to GS ? if the later then both buy/sell should be cancelled, if not, its tricky .. calm down now,
yawn. enough with the warrants already.
“i think they should always sell some premium as a hedge”
Sure, but this is hardly an arb is it? And it didn’t answer my original question, which was how do you “arb the actual vol/realized vol using mispriced straddles”?
hear hear
“arbitrage” is an overused and abused term
‘but this is hardly an arb is it?’
yah pure arb is very very limited, most of it is stat arb or spread arb,
‘how do you “arb the actual vol/realized vol using mispriced straddles”?’
so if straddle is trading at actual vol of 40, thats roughly 2.5% per day, but you know its going to move 5% becuase of all the news/uncertainty, so u buy straddle .. so actual vol/gamma in the market vs realised .. market makers are pretty good in this day on day movement .. thats what they do .. adjust parameters constantly ..
‘“arbitrage” is an overused and abused term’
you got a better word to replace arb in merger arb, convertible arb, stat arb, spread arb blah ..
yeah … gambling
yeah … aSSumed convergence
“banks’ desk are so heavily focussed on client activity, that prop positions are difficult to get in and out .. prop desk itself are being shuttered .. its not all that funny, its the way things are .. nothing a bank trader can do ..”
Amen brother.
“but you know its going to move 5%”
Yep, sounds like a perfect arb to me! You’re not sticking your finger in the air at all.
Good luck with that.
“you got a better word to replace arb in merger arb, convertible arb, stat arb, spread arb blah ..”
none of that is arbitrage
merger arb is a trade on regulatory/shareholder approval – it ain’t an arb
stat arb makes an assumption that loose statistical / historical relationships that have held in the past will continue to hold – it ain’t an arb
convert arb – admittedly that gets closer to arb in that you can split the FI/credit/vol/equity components out and trade each separately but again it is not an arb
all of these should be thought of as “strategies with a head start” not as arbs. I am not suggesting that they are not (potentially) profitable, just that the word arbitrage is overused and abused.
If you don’t call it arbitrage “they” won’t fund the strategy.
..
If by chance, or through eloquently phrased bs, “they” do fund it, humourless risk managers & the P/L police will be all over your ass.
..
“They will insist your strategy doesn’t work because you “lack confidence” in it, just because you aren’t as dumb and naive – or just plain unscrupulous – as the other three traders. Then when it does make money, the guy sitting next to you will run and tell the boss it was his trade, and take half your money. Then they will lay you off and invest everything in mortgage-backed securities.”
http://www.wilmott.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=78238
‘yeah … gambling’
its gambling if you are not careful about your odds, reckless about management and of course if the house has advantage .. thats not the case with there sort of arb .. everybody knows its not free lunch and there is risk of loosing money..
reckless about money management
‘yeah … aSSumed convergence’
you wanna call merger assumed convergence, convertible assumed convergence ??!
‘Yep, sounds like a perfect arb to me! You’re not sticking your finger in the air at all.’
why is everybody getting so pedantic about the word arb .. its just symbolic of low risk/low ‘surer’ payoff trades ..
‘none of that is arbitrage’
of course .. its not risk free money .. who said otherwise ..
‘all of these should be thought of as “strategies with a head start” not as arbs’
really do you know traders who think they are pure risk free arb ??!
‘just that the word arbitrage is overused and abused.’
coming back to that again, do you have better replacement word ?
‘If you don’t call it arbitrage “they” won’t fund the strategy.’
classic behavioural finance .. lack of fear for the familiar ..
“you wanna call merger assumed convergence, convertible assumed convergence ??!”
Merger falls through.
Convertable subject to rate changes.
>>‘If you don’t call it arbitrage “they” won’t fund the strategy.’
>classic behavioural finance .. lack of fear for the familiar ..
The only important trade is the one to get funding.
“You need money to trade stocks. So you will have to either earn it yourself, or deal with employers or clients.
The clients will be a nightmare if you can’t deal with them. All your clients will pull their money out to buy gold and heating oil futures. The only one left you will make him 20%. Then he will say he wants to post notional margin, and after he does you will make him 80%. Then you will lose half the 80% you made, and he will tell you that was his whole savings, and sue you for losing half the money you made.”
http://www.wilmott.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=78238
“Pan is considering hiring Herr Doktor ??? I thought they were smart guys, although they also hired Mister Camembert, ex-vdm”
Clearly. Just bad luck.
Jan 2011 — “I began to read strategy pieces to see what I was missing and I came away positively swayed. It would seem that all the bad news has been clearly digested and discounted. We now have a situation of positive risk reward unlike what we have seen in years for Japan.”
http://www.panassetmanagement.com/content/blogsection/5/9/
‘The only important trade is the one to get funding.’
if you think that way, thats why its a problem for you to get funding,
‘http://www.wilmott.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=78238’
stop babbling, come on ..
‘http://www.panassetmanagement.com/content/blogsection/5/9/
Pan Asset Management Ltd, was founded in 2006 by Mary d’Eon as a vehicle for investors to participate in a unique investment style and perspective.’
i think you got the wrong PAN
Fukin retards it is this one …. http://pan-ag.com/
just the right amount of detail
‘The only important trade is the one to get funding.’
“if you think that way, thats why its a problem for you to get funding,”
mm pilot logic
‘The only important trade is the one to get funding.’
perhaps not the only important trade, but certainly your most important trade
“if you think that way, thats why its a problem for you to get funding,”
mm pilot logic
agreed. MMs often prone to see the world in lilliputian terms
‘mm pilot logic’
no logic,
‘MMs often prone to see the world in lilliputian terms’
have you been in a MM ?
‘“if you think that way, thats why its a problem for you to get funding,”’
that means if you are not fucking good, then you have fucking problem getting funding and thats what all is on your mind .. you retard ..
‘MMs often prone to see the world in lilliputian terms’
have you been in a MM ?
yes i have. I am one of the few who have been involved across the whole spectrum of risk taking in the EQD market from MM to bank to macro fund. Once you step back from the Orc screen, you see a whole new world out there other than buy 1 under, sell 1 over.
what you guys do have is access to the best day 1 technical training though – very valuable later in life if you do actually survive outside optiver/tibra/imc
“that means if you are not fucking good, then you have fucking problem getting funding and thats what all is on your mind .. you retard ..”
Dear 9:42am,
Please say retard again.
Oh, and you might not want to work for a bank.
You might not fit in well with the big boys.
Kind Regards,
Big Bank.
p.s. No funding for you. Best of luck trading 100 lots on the screen.
11:05am – imo the critical transition from orc screen to the-rest-of-the-world may be forming and “working” relationships. Not so technocal on the outside.
one should not put optiver in the same category….. despite being traditional MM’s they branched out from buy 1 under sell 1 over a long while ago. not your typical 100 lot traders either..
‘Once you step back from the Orc screen, you see a whole new world out there other than buy 1 under, sell 1 over.’
and you think we dont know about this whole new world of yours ?
‘one should not put optiver in the same category….. ‘
optiver is very much small scale .. you havent seen the sizes go in the market .. optiver doesnt have the appetite for those big positions .. they are very good in managing their exposures and there is nothing fuckling wrong having small positions .. dont know why you are having complex from these supposed big swinging dicks sitting on their huge bank’s franchise ..
better a thousand small arbs than a dozen big punts.
big swinging douches
morons trading on behalf of even bigger morons.
the gravy train for the mindless micro dick.
the amount of bonus carrot thrown abouts is amazing, if i own the fund or the company why would I pay anymore than minimum possible to retain you or replace you .. there is no free lunch,
Is there an update on the GS warrant story? Was anything reversed? Did Government Sachs swallow the loss? Who was on the other side?
i see on bbg that warrants are still suspended, so the issue is unresolved ? its just been two weeks really, if it ends up in a judicial court, this could take months .. probably they are going to do cost vs benefit as to how much they wanna pursue the losses .. i think the counterparty is small private party, so the word of it hasnt gotten out ..
counter party is MM firm
which one ?
and pls dont get dissuaded from saying because of loyalty bs .. the owner/partner of the MM would not take a second before fucking you over .. so be real about this loyalty bs ..
Liquid bought the gs warrants…
“the amount of bonus carrot thrown abouts is amazing, if i own the fund or the company why would I pay anymore than minimum possible to retain you or replace you .. there is no free lunch,”
it’s not about the bonus, it’s about the great working environment, and funky office layout, with lunch provided, and a games room.
think how cool you’d be playing games after a long day’s market making, while your friends working in banks have no games room, and have to wear suits. ick.
the bonus really doesn’t matter when you consider those benefits.
working on a low base at an MM is sooo awesome.
which company do you work for ? sounds like liquid or AO ?
even if I dont have games room, my bank’s gym is in the same building, i just go there to unwind .. i dont have to wear suits or tie, only the business smart dressing..
you are european if you suggest bonus doesnt matter .. or in completely wrong line of work .. this is not charity for the founders/owners of the biz ..
the whole messsage suggests the writer is being sarcastic and is taking a piss at a mm buddy .. which shows the size of ur own dick to be atleast 9 inches ..
Yeah, their auto-warrant arb machine is untouchable. Literally.
some MMs exploit hordes of young bright grads *every* year, with the promise of a great working environment, casual dress etc.. and shitty pay. not such bright grads imo.
same for the IB’s, they chew out hundreds of grads every year. Promise them a big career, but 80% of them never survive the trainee period, and during bad times up to a 100%.
‘Yeah, their auto-warrant arb machine is untouchable. Literally.’
whose ?
‘some MMs exploit hordes of young bright grads ‘
wats wrong with that .. this is capitalism .. are you european/socialist or something ?
‘same for the IB’s, they chew out hundreds of grads every year.’
same for you, wats wrong with that .. this is capitalism .. are you european/socialist or something ?
nothing wrong with that, I was just countering the anti-MM IB trader who made the first comment.
breaking news! Two Deutsche Bank warrant traders have been arrested in Hong Kong. Maybe connected to the GS warrant case? More news to follow….
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/two-deutsche-bank-staff-arrested-in-hong-kong-probe-2011-04-14
Oops!…hey the theo check isn’t working! Shit! there it goes again….
http://www.jpmwarrants.com.hk/en/warrants/compare_e.cgi?code=10073&ccode=10035
Looks like the trade at 72 cents was a bit high compared to DB warrant
i think the ‘anti-MM IB trader’ was a MM taking a piss at IB trader !
Thanks for killing capitalism, America. You fucken assholes allow this shit to happen….. Your empire and standard of living deserves to crumble.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-real-housewives-of-wall-street-look-whos-cashing-in-on-the-bailout-20110411?print=true
‘The two senior executives were being probed for alleged bribery involving tens of millions of dollars, the South China Morning Post said, citing a person familiar with the investigation’
i dont think they are related .. gs just fucked up .. it be interesting if somebody can post some color of how the fuck up happened ..
‘The agency said it suspected the two bank staff of conspiring to accept payment from the stock investor and other people, in return for quoting favorable prices to them when they traded the bank’s derivative warrants. ‘
def unrelated, who’s the muppet trying to find a connection .. are you a quantitative researcher trying to find patterns and correlations in markets which are just really pure coicidences ..
‘Your empire and standard of living deserves to crumble.’
calm down man,
‘Looks like the trade at 72 cents was a bit high compared to DB warrant’
can somebody explain why DB warrant is still trading at GS warrant price level .. the big difference is the gearing, but i dont know abt the instrument to know if this is causing the price difference of 72 c vs 3.6 c,
“i think the ‘anti-MM IB trader’ was a MM taking a piss at IB trader !”
Just sayin that the grad army takes it in the aSS every single year, and, it’s comical, regardless where you’re observing it from.
MM Great working environment — Games room!
IB “career path”, brand name, r e l a t i o n s h i p s.
…
Eh .. I guess someone has to go buy the coffee / lunch / put beer in fridge / cover phones over lunch / fiddle with excel issues / help IT test stuff / talk to worthless clients / watch illiquid legacy products ..
‘Just sayin that the grad army takes it in the aSS every single year, and, it’s comical, regardless where you’re observing it from’
as a grad, ur life is suppose to suck .. whats wrong with that .. grad is being paid, grad is being trained, what more do they want .. they are not giving anything back .. fuck them .. but its not fucking funny .. it wasnt funny when i was getting shafted as a grad .. it still hurts .. aah, ouch ..
have seen some grads giving more back than their mentors .. but only in banks.
how did they give back .. got any particular egs u like to share .. so that you can be told why it wasnt actually useful .. its only morons like you who think that grads can actually give something back ..
grad: So you guys are MMs?
veteran: Yeah
grad: Why do you punt deltas all day long?
veteran: Shut up.
‘Why do you punt deltas all day long?’
because the volatility doesn’t move as much, so can’t punt on it .. the volumes are down, so cant scalp it .. the management still wants the P&L of those good old days .. and then on top i have a stupid grad asking me stupid question .. what a life ..
the management still wants the P&L of those good old days ..
try doing some dividend-stripping puts in RWE
more then 50k. total turnover today
that was the case last year too .. wonder how much these guys make from the div stripping ..
word is that the great Danny Bhandari has entered into a joint venture with a major IB in Asia. could be the beginnings of IB forming MM operations
“word is that the great Danny Bhandari has entered into a joint venture with a major IB in Asia. could be the beginnings of IB forming MM operations”
The word has been pulled out of your ass.
Anyone know how the CFTC vs Optiver hearing went a few days ago?
Bhandari is a not someone a respectable IB would do business with .This is total BS .
btw ,who cares about the CFTC case ? Maybe it could cost a M , so what ?
Nothing entered into PACER yet about CFTC vs Optiver. The hearing was on 18th April so something should show up tomorrow.
I think it will cost many, many, many M’s.
Why were the Optiver CFTC comments deleted?
They have reappeared. Good one, Internet Explorer.
‘Danny Bhandari has entered into a joint venture with a major IB in Asia. could be the beginnings of IB forming MM operations’
solid move .. there has been discussions in past on this forum about IB starting MM .. this doesnt sounds like american IB .. french IB are already in the game in europe atleast .. british IB are too stupid .. swiss IB are too old school.. could be DB or most probably an upcoming asian IB like macquire .. danny’s big in aussie, so mac seems good aussie bet to start with ..
‘Bhandari is a not someone a respectable IB would do business with’
he’s a successful entrepreneur with a successful MM .. he’s got lot more brand than these stupid IB sucking on clueless companies, investors, institutional and not to forget retail ..
‘btw ,who cares about the CFTC case ? Maybe it could cost a M , so what ?’
people have been speculating 30-50 mm fine ..
from what i am hearing, the IB is Japanese and will be in the form of a joint venture. look for Bhandari to take some of his former ex Tibra allies with him. supposedly the Japanese IB has promised the best IT set up and lowest latency in the region
Be great to see “The Butcher” back in the markets!
Ridiculous rumours. Bhandari still holds all his shares in Tibra – there is no way on earth there is any truth to this.
“this market isn’t big enough for me”
7:55 – you are a bit slow. Apparently Bhandari is out of Tibra. His shares are due to be sold to a consortium of European mainly Dutch former traders. expect Tibra to have a bigger European focus from now on
“Apparently Bhandari is out of Tibra. His shares are due to be sold to a consortium of European mainly Dutch former traders. expect Tibra to have a bigger European focus from now on”
LOL. This is amusing. Please tell us more!
Good on Bhandari…
Agreed, i am tipping Bhandari to be successful yet again.
his next company can be named FTD again ?
irony – the company he co-founded was eventually bought out (at the high) by the people he dedicated it to in the first place.
bought out at the high. Are you high?
1:33 how true, his unique business sense and entrepreneurial ability is what sets him apart from those he started with back at optiver
erm…. ahem!
isn’t it someone else who is setting up with the ibank???
solid move from the ibank imho, much cheaper than buying a loser mm!!!
http://www.interactivebrokers.com/download/Q1_11_earnings_release.pdf
Bhandari , a couple of steps ahead of everyone else yet again. Expect a few traders to quit their jobs soon and reappear at the new house of Bhandari in a few months
This is comical!
i think people here are getting way too far ahead of themselves
“a couple of steps ahead”? Hang on, wasn’t Bhandari fired from Optiver, then fired from Tibra?
Many great men have been fired for unjust reasons only to go onto great things
Yeah but the majority because they had no positive value to the company that kicked them out. If you let this guy in your company, you”ll know it will lead to problems later on.
‘IB is Japanese’
sounds like Nomura .. they are stupid enough to pick up lehman pieces and still trying to piece it up .. trust them to pick up more fallen pieces like ex-tibra ceo .. why not hire dick fuld while at it ..
‘Be great to see “The Butcher” back in the markets!’
Bhandari has got nick name of ‘The Butcher’ .. wow, did he come up with that all by himself ?
‘his next company can be named FTD again ?’
no i think FTA – fuck the aussies .. or FTT – fuck the Tibras .. or FMIAMG – Fuck me, I am God ..
‘isn’t it someone else who is setting up with the ibank???’
who is that ?
‘http://www.interactivebrokers.com/download/Q1_11_earnings_release.pdf’
what a stellar jump in profits and revenues for the Q .. is that what other MM are seeing ?
‘Many great men have been fired for unjust reasons only to go onto great things’
he’s up 40 mil, you all can go fuck urselves ..
‘you”ll know it will lead to problems later on.’
what sorts of problem did he create at Optiver, and at Tibra and what problems he might create at the IB ?
Bhandari only creates problems for insecure fools who are scared by his superior managent skills and entrepreneurial abililty
well said Butcher,
So what’s the current estimate for the potential fine for Optiver from the CFTC seeing how Brian Hunter was just fined USD 30m for manipulating NG prices?
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110421-711937.html
estimating this fine .. is waste of time !
Bhandari would not have been anywhere without Tim, Glenn and the ex-IMC guys. Indeed, his guts added the right ingredient to a successful trading firm,but certainly not his intellect or trading skills. Only some (ex-)juniors within Tibra seem to believe otherwise because they are not able to think critically.
If the rumor is true: I’m betting on Daiwa.
no one claimed bhandari did it by himself .. he was integral part of tibra and he’s up 40 mil .. simple and straight .. nothing too complicated ..
i have also heard that he was not such as successful businessman Bhandari was a prodigious cricketer who would have gone on to play for Australia or at least earn a hefty IPL contract!
I took him out on a duck many times.
He was denied a place in team when it turned out that he had been using someone else’s bat for a while.
My money is on Mizuho
yah mizuho is good bet, i recall seeing one of the french ex-exotics trader running fx algo trading for them .. what a joke ..
@Mista Inside
Ex-IMC guys? You’re having a laugh, mate. These guys are clueless.
But they call me the butcher in oz
also look for some ex optiver sydney people to be joining Bhandari once their non compete is over. only the younger traders not the older hacks
This is hilarious – keep it up!
I always wonder with these sorts of rumours whether people make them up intentionally, or whether they heard something vague fifth or sixth hand and tried to fill in the gaps with people, companies and IBs.
rob keldoulis is the only guy starting starting something. good luck
That makes a little more sense than Bhandari starting anything ..
Robtiver
Ro$ K and D#nni can work together.
danny is an indian guy, he is not going to go for his campari gig, he doesnt know the concept .. but rob would, so dont confuse one with another just because both of them happen to be in aussie ..
Bhandari and keldoulis are not going into business together. Keldoulis has lost interest in financial markets and is currently organising the Dalai Lama’s next Australian tour. He is also producing a movie focused on market making loosely based on the early days of Optiver
could be the next Boiler room or rogue trader!
I have also heard about this movie. Not sure if it is based on Optiver Australia or Amsterdam ? Not too sure how successful rob k will be trying to get a decent studio interested. Apparently it is being pitched more as a documentary than a regular drama
I heard something about that, but assumed it was rubbish. Maybe some truth to it then. I heard they were looking at Alex Dimitriades to play the role of Rob Keldpulis.
campari capital?
campari trading company?
Danny’s gonna be played by Ice Cube
The movie is called “Wall Street III: Aussi’s always sleep”….
2:57 – dont know where you get this idea that “aussies always sleep”
you mean this alex dimitriades…?
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x12lve_alex-dimitriades-pick-up-scene-head_shortfilms
what about clint starting something???
‘you mean this alex dimitriades…?
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x12lve_alex-dimitriades-pick-up-scene-head_shortfilms‘
man alex did some gay role .. that doesnt mean a) that he is gay or b) the guy whom he potrays i.e. Robtiver is gay .. do you work in All Options or Liquid ?
expect the doco to be a puff piece and will paint Optiver in a very positive light. Rob K is still a large shareholder and would not want to damage it in any way. He is still waiting for final approval from Johann
whats wrong with painting Optiver in correct/positive light, Robptiver is not in this for charity .. has he still got lot of shares .. hasnt he been out of the company for a year or two ?
“what about clint starting something???”
All of the Tibra founders still have their shares. No one is selling. No one is starting anything. Simple as that.
When one of the founders sells their shares, then, and only then, can we start speculating.
“what about clint starting something???”
I hear Clint is starting a chicken shop down in Bondi, hiring all ex-tibra, IMC and Optiver female staff and calling it “Dirty Birds R Us”
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