Optiver’s profits rebound
It sounds like ages ago when Optiver was hammering the oil prices. It has been five years since the evil Hammer has been used in 2006, and court case is still dragging on. Here’s a perfect short official summary of the situation in 2006 to fresh up your memory. Love the quotes (“You should milk it for right now because you never know how long it’s going to last“). Anyway, the careers of the main three suspects haven’t exactly enjoyed the CFTC attention. Dowson is gone, van Kempen left the firm two years ago and recently MD Randal Meijer was given the sack. Within Optiver apart from top management nobody seems to know why. CFTC fine is expected this year.
The other expensive battlefield is continued on 31st of May, when Tibra can submit evidence they did not steal trading secrets from the ultra fast F1 trading software. Within ranks of Optiver some folks describe the F1 software as “junk”, and offices not using it and arguing about it has been the running gag of 2010.
PMM play off
There is some more colour on the play off for the primary market maker roles in Aegon, Akzo and Ahold. Optiver has been defending their pmm roles to contenders 323 and Nino. Quoting tight and for large volumes gives you a quoting quality score – and over two months the best one wins the pmm role (pmm is quoting all series, having more capacity at the exchange). The head to head game isn’t good for margins, but perfect for the competitive spirit. Here are the lucky numbers, with the winning firm bold.
- Aegon : Optiver (87), Nino (84), 323 Trading (77)
- Akzo : IMC (84), 323 Trading (82), Optiver (72)
- Ahold : 323 Trading (83), Optiver (74)
Optiver is relegated in Akzo and Ahold, with small 323 Trading filling the gap. The benefit of the obligation to quote all option series is subject to debate, with the tiny bid-ask spread the market makers do run serious risks. It seems 323 Trading has a strategy of accumulating pmm roles, and they stick consistently to their mission. Note the large gap in the scores for Optiver, lagging far behind in two stocks. One would suspect the management forgot to tell some traders they are participating in a play off competition. Ahold isn’t too hard to quote.
140m profit in 2010
There’s some good news on Optiver as well. Last year the firm made 140 million (we need to wait till early 2012 for confirmation), with the most money earned in the Amsterdam office, followed by Chicago and third place the Sydney office. Good to learn the profits rebounded after the difficult 2009.
why do you think dowson is gone?
bang that close
Kudos to Jack for hosting this site!
check this one out!
http://www.optiesbeursvloer.nl
Is that 140 M trading profit, or 140M profit available to shareholders after paying costs? They are very different things.
i would assume 140 mil is the gross profit, comparable would be 200 mil for 2009 and 700 mil for 2008; not surprising given the market, but okay given partners have left by drove and hopefully the fixed cost of 70 mil for IT has been brought down ..
“we need to wait till early 2012 for confirmation”
Why is this? I don’t understand the Dutchy financial system at all. Is the 140m an official figure or not?
Before costs or after costs? Before bonuses or after bonuses?
I would assume this is the net trading profit but of course not the the net profit of the company.
Sydney office being third does not surprise me. The co. made all the money in early 2000’s coz they were the only Market makers in the market. Now with competition heating up the beach loving oz traders cannot compete.
The level of mediocrity among those guys is ridiculous. Those traders would be murdered if they showed up in Europe or the pits of Chicago. Eclipse is a prime example.
F-1 is the fastest thing in the world. Ppl calling it junk are stitched up or sued traders.
140 mil should be the sum total of profit sitting on traders books, all the costs of IT/Admin blah blah comes in Income Statement later .. this sounds like the top line ..
‘F-1 is the fastest thing in the world.’
do u know who is the second fastest and how far ahead of them are u ?
‘The level of mediocrity among those guys is ridiculous. ‘
they shud just limit themselves to IT in Oz rather than coming to amsterdam and trying to trade,
‘I would assume this is the net trading profit but of course not the the net profit of the company.’
whats the difference between the net trading profit Vs the net profit of the company.
@ that is so true! .. This is 1:35 replying.
I guess being in the right place at the right time is the essence of capitalism. Time to find the next Kospi…..
‘This is 1:35 replying.’
u shud suck each other off and spare the group of ur obv statements,
obv ?
my linkedin profile states my dick started growing an inch every year since 2007, u can do the maths,
We are waiting for the first hair
I started a new company in the UK because competition was too fierce in Amsterdam and I could not bully the market
http://webuyanybike.com/
JUST WHACK THE OIL!
Hmmm, what was it about Eclipse? It’s a small market maker?
“Time to find the next Kospi…..”
Amen brother.
@ 10:44 Is this you, Gregg and Chriss?
‘Hmmm, what was it about Eclipse? It’s a small market maker?’
there European ambition seemed all but collapsing last time i checked,
RE: ‘I would assume this is the net trading profit but of course not the the net profit of the company.’
RE: ‘whats the difference between the net trading profit Vs the net profit of the company’
net trading profit = gross trading profit – trading fees
net trading of company = gross trading profit – trading fees – all other costs like bonuses, infrastructure, …
Quote asked Optiver to comment. Nothing yet.
http://www.quotenet.nl/quote-500/optiver-loopt-weer-op-rolletjes.php
@ 10:44 Is this you, Gregg and Chriss?
No. But they may have come to me in the past.
I am bored. Can anyone buy me the CS 30/3050 March OESX at 18 on a 70 ref ?
Fuckin’ market
fucking bored trader
If they made 140m trading profit in 2010 but 200m trading profit in 2009, then surely the company overall posted a significant loss, right?
@5:00 overall posted a significant loss, right?
In that case yes…
But this seems to be net trading of the co. available to shareholders…!!!
‘why do you think dowson is gone?’
Last I heard Dowson is working from “home” on “special assignments” for management and still on the payroll.
‘there European ambition seemed all but collapsing last time i checked,’
What does it mean by collapsing? You mean they closed down their European offices?
“But this seems to be net trading of the co. available to shareholders…!!!”
Okay, so you’re saying this figure of 140m is after fixed overheads but before bonuses and dividends are paid. Is that right?
Secondly, is this 140m an official figure? What is the source?
Ha! I hadn’t read that CFTC summary in a few years. Boy are they going to get reamed in the ass on this.
eh .. throw them in ass pounding prison.
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yeah yeah civil case, whatevva
Do 4 horseman(Schwab, Dowson, Meijer, Van Kempen) face possibility of Guantanamo Bay if convicted by court of law in US?
Yes. They will probably be water-boarded as well.
At least some of them are still making money…
I’d be hesitant to put Schwab down as one of the “horsemen”. Do you really think the legal department had any idea about this? I guess there is a chance he may have beenan accessory after the fact, but that’s not exactly going to land him in jail.
140 million net profit proves what I said a couple of months before . People haven’t really understood the 2009 figures of Optiver . They are doing much bettter then what is suggested on this blog .
I think the question is of *how they have been doing it*. Look at any of then non-anonymous screen based trading, and optv’s not looking real hot. IMC on the other hand seems to be shitting on everyone convincingly & with extreme prejudice. Fasster & tighter.
“I’d be hesitant to put Schwab down as one of the “horsemen”. Do you really think the legal department had any idea about this? I guess there is a chance he may have beenan accessory after the fact, but that’s not exactly going to land him in jail.”
As how I understand facts, Schwab was general counsel but also “Chief Risk Officer”. How could “Chief Risk Officer” not understand strategies and/or trading practices? Unless job title was bullshit I’d expect “Chief Risk Officer” to know what is happening on trading floor.
anonymous
March 6th, 2011 at 3:05 pm
I think the question is of *how they have been doing it*. Look at any of then non-anonymous screen based trading, and optv’s not looking real hot. IMC on the other hand seems to be shitting on everyone convincingly & with extreme prejudice. Fasster & tighter.
definately not on the asx (a disclosure market). imc are average.
“People haven’t really understood the 2009 figures of Optiver”
Then please enlighten us.
I thought it was fairly simple – they made 23m EUR trading profit after costs and paid out 17m EUR in bonuses, leaving 6m EUR as net profit for the company.
So do we know yet if 140m is an official figure, and if it is after overheads or before overheads?
before
also, bonuses were very low and they are keeping a large buffer for the fine expected later this year (up to $100m)
and yes, optiver senior staff could go to prison for what happened under US legislation, although unlikely
“before”
Okay, so if it is before overheads, then unless they have significantly reduced their cost base, then they will post a substantial net loss, right?
So, why is this post called “Optiver’s profits rebound”?
The lack of knowledge if it is before or after costs makes me wonder if this 140m is even the correct figure.
(.)(.)
) . (
( v )
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‘Last I heard Dowson is working from “home” on “special assignments” for management and still on the payroll.’
whose cock did he suckle to be still on payrolls .. even the girl who was made optiver US head was fired after she failed to perform .. why is this dude still around ..
‘What does it mean by collapsing? You mean they closed down their European offices’
traders leaving, new random hires, not much P&L, system issues ..
“But this seems to be net trading of the co. available to shareholders…!!!”
sounds bs .. 140m from 6m last year .. in ur dreams .. also its barely 2 months since year closed down, not sure if they can even decide that quickly how much to dstribute to the shareholders ..
‘They are doing much bettter then what is suggested on this blog .’
nobody on the blog said they were doing badly .. people were just bitching abt their wrong decisions .. nothing on their P&L .. stop blabbering ..
‘IMC on the other hand seems to be shitting on everyone convincingly & with extreme prejudice. Fasster & tighter.’
somebody get this asslicker some toilet paper ..
‘I’d expect “Chief Risk Officer” to know what is happening on trading floor.’
i think u can’t be indicted for incompetence .. thats why dick fuld isnt going to be jailed ..
‘So, why is this post called “Optiver’s profits rebound”?’
trader jack didnt understand european option from american option .. dont believe everything he says ..
“trader jack didnt understand european option from american option .. dont believe everything he says ..”
source?
“somebody get this asslicker some toilet paper ..”
dude, ’twas fear not admiration. r-soles are giving the public spreddy too tighty :o()
amusing what Jack lets through, and what gets deleted.
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‘source?’
‘The benefit of European style stock options isn’t yet clear to me.’ as said by jack in http://www.amsterdamtrader.com/2011/02/consequences-of-exchange-merger.html
‘ ’twas fear not admiration’
if ur fear comes true, u wud need the toilet paper to wipe it off ..
‘r-soles are giving the public spreddy too tighty ()’
can you not use your retarded abbreviation and talk in plain english ..
‘amusing what Jack lets through, and what gets deleted.’
Jack has stopped censoring for a while now .. nice !
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keep it coming : )
“traders leaving, new random hires, not much P&L, system issues ..”
How about their operations in Hong Kong?
‘How about their operations in Hong Kong?’
they are much too small to have any sort of leaks from the insiders, so dont bother too much .. forget them ..
“Jack has stopped censoring for a while now .. nice !”
Bullshit, he’s deleted 3 of my posts over the past week
1:35 those “beach loving oz traders” of the early 2000’s are not there any more. they have either started their own companies or are retired.
if you know any of these guys and are still trading , then you might have to look in the mirror
Many of the senior trader now are from holland and many but not all of the traders that have come to the oz office from amsterdam have been poor traders
‘Bullshit, he’s deleted 3 of my posts over the past week’
can u rephrase them and post it again, it be interesting to hear what u were saying, and why might Jack have deleted them ! he used to delete my posts all the time, but lately he hasnt done that, i thought that was really gud !
‘r-soles are giving the public spreddy too tighty ()’
“can you not use your retarded abbreviation and talk in plain english ..”
Ok just for you dumbo:
– Those arseholes are giving the public spreads that are too tight.
And I’ll add that this reduces *your* transaction cost, mate.
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‘r-soles are giving the public spreddy too tighty ()’
‘Those arseholes are giving the public spreads that are too tight.’
you, mate, are proud nominee for being the joke of the month .. keep it coming ..
yeah you’re right. just keep paying the spread fella.
….o
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'
I know which end I'm on.
Sesame street blog is better than this crap!
So we’ve had All Options, IMC, Tibra and Optiver’s prior (2009) results all with their own article and links to their audited results. How can we have the topic of Optiver’s latest (2010) results with no source listed? Sloppy journalism Jack, always gotta provide sources or it’s just idle speculation.
‘Sesame street blog is better than this crap!’
get the fuck out of here then, peace,
‘Sloppy journalism Jack, always gotta provide sources or it’s just idle speculation.’
muppet, this is primarily a rumour blog, just appreciate if and when the actual link comes along .. in the mean time, stop whining or go to ur sesame street blog to join ur other bitchy friend ..
Jack keep up the great work. I know for a fact that the Global Management board reads the stories and comments on this board. Keep up the good fight!
‘Keep up the good fight!’
who is jack fighting against ?
muppet, i guess ur one of those in Global Mgmt board or advising them as a clueless consultant or some shit ..
dowson is being cared for in australia. profits down there? hmmmm?
Dowson is in Australia? This is the first I’ve heard about this…….
Please give more details on this
why do you all have such a crush on dowson?
–>winning<–
I heard he had a massive cock. Maybe that’s why.
‘dowson is being cared for in australia’
that was the last refuge .. after ams and chicago, sounds useful too given the trading reputation of aussies
‘why do you all have such a crush on dowson?’
nobody has a crush, its just an interesting cast study .. nothing more to it .. but if u cant stop thinking of his cock, thats nobody else’s biz ..
‘I heard he had a massive cock. Maybe that’s why.’
look this is ur competition, u can go DP on Downson
why do peoples sponsor this blog if it is shit? i see advertisements
‘why do peoples sponsor this blog if it is shit? i see advertisements’
dont believe everything u see.. u see magic and believe that too ? dodo ..
ArbiT is magic?
no ReViTpO is the original magic >>!
All you guys wish you were as good as trader as Dowson. It’s easy to talk sh*t about the guy behind your keyboard, but I know for fact you wouldn’t say sh*t to his face. Dowson has last laugh as he looks out million dollar condo and takes out speed boat for a spin while you working 9-5.
the condo he can’t live in… and the speed boat he can’t drive.
But you gotta give credit where its due. He is aggressive… !!!
Yes, he is aggressive. Yes, he is in Australia. Yes, Meijer is out. This may be Optiver’s best bet at staying alive
‘This may be Optiver’s best bet at staying alive’
wat having randal out and dowson in australia ??!
Optiver fire senior traders in Chicago before bonus to wake young traders up. Meijer also out means better days for Optiver ahead. I agree
Senior traders in Chicago were a joke. Loss makers for 9 years were passengers who got paid because Dowson was aggressive.
‘Meijer also out means better days for Optiver ahead. I agree’
why ?
‘Senior traders in Chicago were a joke’
they dropped couple of mil on one of the oil spreads, morons,
what has become of this blog ? These comments on Optiver don’t make any sense . Still the old Optiver/Tibra vendetta ?
All very useless .These two companies are not in the same league .
You only have to look at net profit .
It is a pity because this blog wasn’t too bad .
‘It is a pity because this blog wasn’t too bad’
why don’t u fucking write something interesting or correct other people rather than jerking off and complaining .. fucking piss take ..
thanks for proving my point .
‘thanks for proving my point .’
ur welcome, now fucking pack ur bags and leave pls,
@ ‘thanks for proving my point .’
LEGEND…!!!
‘LEGEND…!!!’
i am sure ur legend will let u suck him off,
@ “i am sure ur legend will let u suck him off,
ur welcome, now fucking pack ur bags and leave pls,
why don’t u fucking write something interesting or correct other people rather than jerking off and complaining .. fucking piss take ..”
Someone got stitched up on their bonus big time
‘Someone got stitched up on their bonus big time’
no, nothing to do with bonus, i am just tired off people complainting that the blog quality has gone down, they should either write something constructive or just shut the fuck up..
quite ironical really that people are complainting abt blog quality when they themselves are not doing anything to improve it !
you needed all that swearing to say this ?
Thanks again for proving my point .
anyone done their ass on all this nikkei volatility yet???
asia guys killing it across all companies.. a little more experience would have helped more for sure…!!!
so noone got killed on the gap move? disappointing…
made loads of profit today.
The leveraged long japanese lost loads.
I bullied the shit out the YEN today
‘Thanks again for proving my point .’
man again, if its not too much of a bother, can u either stop bitching or just leave kindly .. pls ..
‘so noone got killed on the gap move? disappointing…’
if you cant see Oil shooting up 20% in the week after Qadafi stunt and Nikkei crashing down 20% in the week after earthquake/tsunami/nuclear meltdown, then u shud stay the fuck away from trading .. and no i didnt get stitched on my fucking bonus,
I HAMMERED THE YEN AT THE OPEN
‘I HAMMERED THE YEN AT THE OPEN’
gud, now go pay 50 quids and get urself hammered a bit,
i heard liquid are up 12 mio on the nikkei this wk
i know of one company that has made more than that on nikkei this week. 12 mio shouldnt be laughed at though
12 mio Yen?
Lucky idiots
What about Pneumann and his desk?
So you are saying that heavily radioactive wind blowing to Tokyo, causing a mass panic and millions in victims could even make more money for Liquid? Maybe then Liquid increases their donation programme so they can continue to pretend that they are really nice guys making the world a better place.
MM’S PROVIDE LIQUIDITY TO THE MARKET, WITHOUT US WHO KNOWS WHERE PRICES WOULD BE. WE MAKE MONEY EITHER WAY, IT’S A ZERO SUM GAME MATES
At least Chriss and Gregg still believe in the fairy tales about my existence. So every now and then their positions profit from the pain I cause by natural disasters.
‘ZERO SUM GAME’
trading and derivatives is not zero sum, fucking hell, i am tired of hearing this stoopid claim, claimed so confidently, morons,
‘trading and derivatives is not zero sum, fucking hell, i am tired of hearing this stoopid claim, claimed so confidently, morons,’
IF THERE WERE NO MM TO PROVIDE LIQUIDITY, THERE WOULD BE NO DEFENSE TO DOWSON AND HAMMER TOOL YOU FREAKIN MORON.
‘IF THERE WERE NO MM TO PROVIDE LIQUIDITY, THERE WOULD BE NO DEFENSE TO DOWSON AND HAMMER TOOL YOU FREAKIN MORON.’
how is this related to trading and derivatives (not) being a zero sum ??!
It IS a zero sum game and the exchanges are a legalized Ponzi scheme. However, in a zero sum game, there can still be those who win (structurally), like MM and arbitrageurs. That only presupposes that some disdvantaged parties will often lose. I think we all know who they are. But denying that trading is a zero sum game across all participants is “stoopid”.
‘It IS a zero sum game ‘
So if you buy shares of Google in its IPO at 100 dollars and now they are trading at 500, how was this zero sum, or do u think because google is eventually going to trade at 100, so then it be zero sum effectively, in the interim its a ponzi scheme legalized by exchange?
‘there can still be those who win (structurally), like MM and arbitrageurs. ‘
if there are higher than expected returns in this biz, more capital and biz are going to open shop driving down the higher excess returns, thats what happened last 2 years .. are all the MM winning? NO ..
‘That only presupposes that some disdvantaged parties will often lose.’
Correct.. stupid retailers, unsohpisticated punters, gamblers are all losers in long term, so they are advised to stay away from Casinos and Financial markets,
‘But denying that trading is a zero sum game across all participants is “stoopid”.’
if you still dont get it, then u can keep on thinking its zero sum, ignorance is bliss, well in ur case its not, since u think its zero sum, and so for you to be good, somebody has to be definitely be equally worse, must be difficult to lead a life like that, no ? Living on other people’s miseries, shorting Nikkie,
@ 3:25 god you’re stoopid. when the two of us trade, no wealth is created or lost IN AGGREGATE, it’s a cash neutral transaction. now extend to all other transactions. the sum of no wealth created = no wealth created (or lost for that matter). what remains are paper profits and losses (that have little meaning until they are realized. certainly they don’t have meaning within the aggregate system, compare with the Madoff investors shortly before the scam was exposed). essentially these are caused by additional money flowing into / out of the aggregate system of what we call “investing” (“new investors”).
Eventually each stock will be trading at 1 cent (it will not happen at the same time for all companies). Just ask yourself the question how many companies that were around a century ago blew up and how many still exist? I hope this answers your GOOGLE nonsense. Facebook would be another good case study.
‘when the two of us trade, no wealth is created or lost IN AGGREGATE, it’s a cash neutral transaction. now extend to all other transactions. ‘
Your ignorance is matched by your blinding arrogance .. So if you invest in a Company and the company’s net worth doubles and then company dismantles and returns back cash which is double of what you invested, then who lost ??! ur mind, thats it .. u lost ur mind .. div adjusted, S&P500 is flat for last 10 years, so ya no wealth created in ten years, no arguements there, but you cant say that for last 100 years .. the whole point about investment/business is not zero sum .. its more business/trade .. try reading abt concept of ‘comparative advantage ‘ .. see if it goes to ur ignorant/arrogant head ..
‘Madoff investors shortly before the scam was exposed). essentially these are caused by additional money flowing into / out of the aggregate system of what we call “investing” (“new investors”).’
because ur ignorant/arrogant, ur confusing financial transactions with ponzi scheme .. if market doesnt go up or down, then ya profit + cost = loss, but ponzi scheme doesnt invest or do business, but companies in which you invest are doing legit business, be it durable goods, services, construction .. they need investors and they try to generate profits .. by your arguement we should stop all sort of investments, close down the companies, and go back to caves .. i think it be best for all of us that you did that and stop spread the confusion around about trade and business and investment ..
‘Eventually each stock will be trading at 1 cent’
Eventually you’ll be dead, so stop fucking worrying abt long long term .. you’ll be dead before that … worry about ur life time and leave the laters to us .. judging your ignorance and arrogance, ur genes are not going to be there for long, so u dont have to worry about ur stupid future generations to come .. they be too stupid to survive the long term ..
‘Just ask yourself the question how many companies that were around a century ago blew up and how many still exist?’
Div adjusted S&P 500 has got remarkable returns for last century .. so next time stoopid company like Lehman is dropping of the index, dont fucking punt on it coming back, just get the hell out of that stock .. short term trading is lot more zero sum, but long term investing is basic premise of any large economy, otherwise companies cant raise funding, financing,
‘I hope this answers your GOOGLE nonsense. Facebook would be another good case study.’
So Google which earned 8bn last year and got valuation of 180bn is nonsense, nice, i agree that their 10 bn of cash flow from business all got invested for long term and none came out for investors; but thats the same philosophy with Berkshire, having never paid dividends in 40 years, thats nonsense also i suppose .. what abt apple, 300bn mkt cap, 20bn cash flow last year, they are sitting on 30bn+ ready cash, thats bit of nonsense too, of course investors are rightly clammering for cash to be returned as these 30bn+ cash is hard to invest for big companies generating same big returns as the existing firm, but thats investing and business work, business tries to generate cash and investor try to generate returns, short term punting is very much zero of course ,..
It’s really simple: you buy stocks (to keep it simple) for one reason and one reason only: your belief (hope?) that you can sell it at a higher price to some poor sucker. Not because you think Enron was a good company, or Lehman Brothers or because the tech bubble would last forever. This is the Ponzi element. You are buying into something that you know will be worthless … eventually. When that happens, you don’t know. In the mean time, you can trade it and still make a profit, just get out in time. And when it finally goes to zero
the wealth amassed by the people who got out on time will be the loss of those who didn’t. Still a zero sum game.
My eight year old understands when I explained my job. What does this say about the moron with the stooopid spelling?
why are half of the postings on this blog by the rambling idiot who can’t spell??? Too much time on his hands while the real traders are making money I guess.
trading = poker = zero sum game 😉 Winner takes it all.
‘trading = poker = zero sum game Winner takes it all.’
is buying an ipo or investing in a business defined as trading ?
‘You are buying into something that you know will be worthless … eventually’
u’ll be dead eventually,
‘In the mean time, you can trade it and still make a profit, just get out in time.’
yes, thats the easiest thing to do, everybody should jump on this wonderful idea,
‘My eight year old understands when I explained my job’
that speaks more abt you and your job and more importantly your understanding of markets than your 8 year old,
‘And when it finally goes to zero
the wealth amassed by the people who got out on time will be the loss of those who didn’t. Still a zero sum game.’
Agreed, so why has div adjusted S&P showed such remarkable returns in last century, but Nikkie is down 75% from its peak in last 20 years, what does it say about investments … there are good and there are bad, but its not zero sum, if you dont see, thats cool, just give up and play with ur 8 year old, u can relate to his innocent view of the world,
try reading ‘comparative advantage’ on google and wiki, u wudnt get it, so ask ur 8 year old for help or maybe his teacher can come give u lesson on how wealth is created in international trade and investments,
u probably didnt finish university or studied some airy fairy subjects, now ur view is completely fixated in small area of understanding, also u correctly know most of the academic theories dont work, but that doesnt mean no academic theory is practical in real life, open ur mind and see the points ur missing .. even if you brought stock at 1 penny, it went to 100 dollars, u connected massive dividends, the stock then went back to 1 penny, how on earth was this zero sum, u did pretty well collecting dividends, that doesnt mean there were zero sum trades in that wild stock ride from 1 penny to 100 dollars and now back again, there are both aspects, investing and zero sum trading,
‘Trading is a zero sum’ – well sort of
mkt has a long beta of 1 (mostly belonging to long only investors) and an alpha of zero (pre costs). Mkt makers all have a beta of zero and an alpha of whatever their P&L is – if you are making money (alpha) then you are taking it off someone else (eg fund managers underperforming their benchmark)
if you assume that all derivatives trades are done delta neutral, then trading derivatives certainly has a zero sum
Correction:
why are 75% of the postings on this blog by the rambling idiot who can’t spell??? Too much time on his hands while the real traders are making money I guess.
‘Correction:’
Ironical,
‘if you assume that all derivatives trades are done delta neutral, then trading derivatives certainly has a zero sum’
belloni, go speak to daily index options or some of the near expiry, the gamma is huge and its certainly not delta neutral,
Jack can you start an education program for your audiance please? This is painful
I COULD GIVE TWO SHITS ABOUT ZERO SUM GAME. I MAKE MONEY EITHER WAY. I JUST WHACK AND BULLY THE MARKET UNTIL IT MOVES MY WAY
‘Jack can you start an education program for your audiance please? This is painful’
oh, the irony
‘Jack can you start an education program for your audiance please? This is painful’
yes pls, this guy never finished school nor bothered to learn the lessons at work, he badly needs it .. start from here ..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage
http://math.uchicago.edu/~sbossu/VarSwaps.pdf
i have another economic “theory” for you: efficient market hypothesis. i prove it wrong every day.
if you believe “theories” like comparative advantage apply to the stock market, you should go out and find a like-minded partner and the two of you will only trade stocks against each other (a zero sum game if there ever was one) but you say both of you can make a profit … right?!?
this reductio ad absurdum proves that no like-minded partner exists. qed. ergo, either you are delusional or you are right and then everyone else on this planet must be wrong. let’s be humble and go with the former.
‘also u correctly know most of the academic theories dont work, but that doesnt mean no academic theory is practical in real life, open ur mind and see the points ur missing ..’
‘but you say both of you can make a profit’
yah because behind the stock market are whole bunch of companies in real world generating product and services using the funding from investors/stock market,
‘let’s be humble and go with the former.’
yah you should do that and be humbled by your lack of understanding and being delusional abt it too,
I see our American professor with the ebonics spelling has woken up.
‘ebonics spelling’
talk abt missing the entire point of debate and instead focussing on ur small dick size,
academics…too afraid to venture out in the real world.
academia is a place where the experts settle in when they know they can’t survive out in real world out there,
‘Last year the firm made 140 million’
This is the profit after costs, gross trading P&L is 300mil +
Jack can you please ip ban the asshole who can’t spell and is a complete and total, utter, f****** moron? 2.14, 15, 16pm etc
(and who likely works at all options international since I doubt the other firms in amsterdam would employ a braindead idiot like that)
calm down buddy, it was the weekend, you should have gone and paid 50 euros to get fucking laid, dont taking out your frustation on all the readers here, dont be fucking cheap dutchie and go pay 50 euro tonight,
I was mistaken, maybe you do work for Optiver, I guess standards have dropped significantly over the yrs….
Guess what ur boss will think about u taking the piss out of the dutchies, thats nasty
dont worry about it buddy, just go get laid please, you’ll feel much better after it, trust,
Spelling mistake boy = Chicken
(Punn intended)
Punn ?!
“I was mistaken, maybe you do work for Optiver, I guess standards have dropped significantly over the yrs…. ”
What standards? In optiver US general counsel gets fired for porn on laptop and former CEO lies to CFTC investigators, sounds like high standards to me.
@March 21st, 2011 at 10:06 pm
Chicken is Kip…
is kip now trading coach now? seems to have worked well with 140m net profit..
wrong, he’s coach for optifit.
wats optifit ?
ofit =
1] dont give bonus to traders.
2] Make the company look cool
3] promote faster Managing directors
‘promote faster Managing directors’
if they are leaving at that high a rate, you need to keep the pipeline up and running, make younger partners, who think they know what the fuck they are doing,
So much talk about Optiver. Look, they continually misbehave, they have a swinging door of managing directors who can’t and don’t manage, they have a recruit them and use attitude toward traders, they have an IT system that is a boondoggle for which no one was held accountable (I hear the champion of that is still on the board but in another role), they have Dowson on the books down under (must be some form of carry), they have partners leaving in droves, they sacked Meijer, and yet, they make loads of money. They might not be doing anything right but they are doing things that work.
[…] to predict the outcome. Caerus has build a solid reputation and Optiver has earlier bitten the dust in Ahold and Akzo recently. 323 Trading is slowly collection a lot of primary […]
@ “They might not be doing anything right but they are doing things that work.”
Lekker man….
the index options and vol arb .. killing it .. most of the money are there ..
CFTC vs Optiver:
ORDER The action is stayed until 5/25/11. Telephone Conference set for 5/25/2011 at 09:30 AM before Judge Loretta A. Preska. (Signed by Judge Loretta A. Preska on 4/28/11) (cd)
@ the index options and vol arb .. killing it .. most of the money are there ..
The top biys from those desks have all resigned as of dec 2010. Tough times ahead on their cash cow..
and they’re going to where?!
also not very bright to leave in december, whilst most bonussen are being payed FEB-APR
Well it would make sense to leave if the company isn’t making any money. No use sticking around if you are going to get shafted.
gee there is a lot of people that seem to know a lot about other trading companies. i am assuming that it is all true
‘The top biys from those desks have all resigned as of dec 2010. Tough times ahead on their cash cow..’
daavid still there ?
[…] short news : the departure of Randal Meijer as CEO of Optiver has been confirmed by Quote (nl). New guy in the boardroom is […]
Oh good grief… the silly journalists don’t bother checking their facts.
I’m betting they’re looking at the wrong company. This sounds more like Ed’s being registered as the CFO rather than running the global show.
how abt journalist did check the facts and that the CFO is taking over CEO interim till they get new CEO decided ?
meh, ppl from all of the market makers talk to eachother.
@11:03 Not likely, what you’re suggesting would be a fast and sensible move and the O crowd hasn’t produced too many of those lately.
Hell, if it’s true it would be a very new idea for them: first time they put an outsider on top, and also one who hasn’t been too long in his current post (CFO).
O crowd as in C level executives ?
and it doesnt matter if its first time or not .. Randal had to go for very urgent reason and so they got CFO to be interim CEO, quite plausible both of it really ..
CFTC charges traders over oil price
By Jack Farchy and Javier Blas in London and Gregory Meyer in New York
Published: May 24 2011 20:06 | Last updated: May 25 2011 00:03
The US commodities regulator has charged a trading house and two individuals with manipulating oil prices in 2008 by amassing dominant positions in the physical market that created the impression of a shortage.
The charge is only the second oil manipulation case the US Commodity Futures Trading Commission has filed since launching a “nationwide crude oil investigation” three years ago as the cost of West Texas Intermediate, the US benchmark, surged towards a record high of $147 a barrel.
The CFTC’s complaint comes as high oil prices have again triggered a political backlash in Washington, with a group of lawmakers demanding a crackdown on speculators and oil companies.
The regulator alleged that Parnon Energy, a US oil trader, together with its Swiss and UK affiliates Arcadia Energy (Suisse) and Arcadia Petroleum, made more than $50m from the scheme in January and March 2008.
The CFTC alleged that two traders at the company amassed large positions in the physical market at Cushing, the pipeline hub in Oklahoma that serves as the delivery point for the WTI futures contract.
The CFTC complaint alleges that by mid-January the traders had accumulated 4.6m barrels of physical oil, or two-thirds of oil available for delivery against the February WTI futures contract. In March they bought 6.3m barrels, equal to 84 per cent of oil available for delivery against the April contract.
The buying created the impression of a shortage and pushed up the price of WTI futures on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Ahead of their move in the physical market, the traders allegedly bought large amounts of futures and other financial instruments that would profit from a price rise.
“They wanted to lull market participants into believing that supply would remain tight,” the CFTC said. “They knew that as long as the market believed that supply was tight and getting even tighter, there would be upward pressure on the prices of WTI for February delivery relative to March delivery, which was their goal.”
While the traders were only able to move the price by $1, compared with a $20 rise in the price of oil between January and April 2008, the large volumes involved allowed them to generate their profit.
After cashing in the profits from their futures positions, the CFTC alleges, they opened bearish bets – or “short” positions – that would profit from a drop in prices.
They then allegedly surprised the market by dumping their physical oil, driving down prices and making further profit on their bearish futures bets.
In an interchange of e-mails, one of the traders said the dumping of oil into the market – which he described as an “inevitable puking” – was having the “desired effect”.
The traders put an end to the scheme in April 2008, after the CFTC asked for documents regarding their trading activities.
Parnon referred calls to its London affiliate, Arcadia Petroleum, which did not respond to requests for comment. The two traders could not be reached for comment.
The UK Financial Services Authority and the Australian Securities and Investments Commission assisted the CFTC investigation.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2011. You may share using our article tools. Please don’t cut articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web.
Toezichthouder VS klaagt handelaren aan voor manipulatie olieprijs
25 mei 2011, 16:15 uur | FD.nl
Door: Martine Wolzak
De Amerikaanse toezichthouders zijn een grootscheepse manipulatie van de olieprijs op het spoor.
De CFTC, belast met toezicht op de grondstoffenmarkten, klaagt handelaren aan van twee handelshuizen die samen $50 mln zouden hebben verdiend aan het opdrijven van de olieprijs in 2008. Dat jaar piekte de prijs op $147 (nu circa $100).
Iedere stijging van de olieprijs zorgt voor zware druk op de Amerikaanse politiek om vermeende speculatie in de oliehandel aan te pakken. De twee aangeklaagde bedrijven zijn fysieke oliehandelaren, geen banken, effectenhuizen of hedge funds die meestal geassocieerd worden met olieprijsmanipulatie.
Boete
Er hangt de verdachten een boete van $150 mln boven het hoofd, de op één na hoogste uit de geschiedenis van de CFTC. Het gaat om Parnon Energy en Arcadia Energy, beiden in handen van de Noorse miljardair John Frederiksen, nummer 72 op de Forbes-lijst van rijkte mensen ter wereld.
De handelshuizen ‘dreven de prijs van WTI (ruwe Texaanse olie) op tot kunstmatige hoogte en daarna weer omlaag, om onrechtmatige winst te maken’, aldus de aanklacht. Zij deden dat door grote grote fysieke posities op te bouwen in Cushing, de opslagplaats voor WTI in het zuiden van de Verenigde Staten. Daardoor steeg de prijs, waarna de vaten massaal werden gedumpt en de prijs weer hard daalde.
Derivaten
Dankzij die manipulatie met fysieke olie verdienden de handelaren geld aan posities in olietermijncontracten, een derivaat waarmee op een toekomstige prijsontwikkeling wordt gespeculeerd. Op de handel in de olievaten zelf leden Parnon Energy en Arcadia een verlies van $15 mln, maar dat werd ruimschoots goed gemaakt door de derivatenwinsten.
Drie jaar geleden diende de CFTC een aanklacht in tegen het Amsterdamse optiehuis Optiver wegens van manipulatie van de olieprijs. Optiver, een van de grootste derivatenhandelaren in Europa, zou met frauduleuze transacties in maart van dat jaar in totaal 19 keer hebben geprobeerd de prijs van verschillende olie- en gascontracten te beïnvloeden op de beurs in New York. Vijf keer zou het bedrijf daar ook in zijn geslaagd met als resultaat een winst van $ 1 mln. In deze zaak is nog steeds geen uitspraak is gedaan.
Dude thanks for the link. Next time just post the URL.
The last few disclaimer lines say it all
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2011. You may share using our article tools. Please don’t cut articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web.
o.k. sorry for that
‘The last few disclaimer lines say it all
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2011. You may share using our article tools. Please don’t cut articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web.’
lol, do u work for FT man ?
the manipulation of 50mn profit landed 150mn fine .. optiver landed merely 1mn profits ..
.. So they get a $101mn fine?
Phone conference with the judge should have happened this morning. Any news?
‘.. So they get a $101mn fine?’
no i think 3mn fine > ?
how strange?! I added a comment yesterday eve which looks to have been deleted! hmmm. So to repeat myself – Dowson is in Sydney being cared for and his parents are living in Ilkley, England. So I hear…
Hoi ik vond je blog via Google. Hele goede site vind ik. Kom zeker nog eens terug om alles terug te lezen. Ben jij ook op Facebook actief???
Nee, we doen alleen Hyves. En het TMF-forum.
it’s glad to read this post! i like it. http://www.registrodesite.net