Derivative license for TOM
It has been almost exactly two years Optiver and Binck announced the birth of little TOM. This venture would initially channel all retail order flow from broker Binck straight into the books of Optiver – and profits to be shared among both parents.
This plan would be devastating for the derivative market and all its participants – and TOM changed plans. When TOM decided to become something better for the market. ABN AMRO joined the partnership, and suddenly a tiny new exchange was born. First for stocks, and after some experimenting in derivatives too. A license to trade options was required, and it was finally granted today by the Authority for Financial Markets (AFM). Trading in options will commence in the fourth quarter this year – and only in a limited number of option series according to their press release.
Earlier on CEO Willem Meijer predicted full option trading on TOM would start in the “summer of 2010”, but building an alternative option market isn’t that simple. There are some complicated issues with the open interest and (early) exercises, the clearing matter and some details for the queueing logic are still unknown. Another curious aspect of the TOM MTF is the physical location of the exchange. Dutch retail clients of a Dutch broker, are trading options on Dutch stocks against Dutch market makers – but this will be happening in Sweden. Small market makers will burn a lot of money when going for the co-located solutions (having your servers located in proximity of the exchange). This Scandinavian part of the deal has got something to do with a partnership with Nasdaq OMX.
Anyway, it’s great the monopoly of Euronext is finally broken. The transaction fees in the current option market are outrageous for retail investors. Especially in the low priced stock options trading doesn’t make any sense. Great, a one cent spread – but you need stellar returns to make a profit. Euronext’s fees effectively block trading with options under 10 cent. TOM will challenge these prices. Although this won’t happen in the AEX index – as it’s a trademark name.
Will they grow, I guess they stay flat, Euronext wins from chix currently and tom doesnt seem to move
Great work and only years behind schedule!
Kritiek Binck-beurs op fusie Euronext
Geschreven door: Martine Wolzak
Amsterdam
De alternatieve beurs van Binck Bank, Optiver en ABN Amro, TOM, schaart zich in de rij van critici van de fusie van NYSE Euronext en Deutsche Börse. TOM heeft zijn zorgen geuit bij de Europese Commissie, die nog goedkeuring moet geven aan de fusie.
‘Een van de zorgen is de verticale silo’, zegt TOM-directeur Willem Meijer. Hij vreest een sterk monopolie van de beoogde beurscombinatie, vooral in de Europese derivatenhandel. Samen zouden de twee beursbedrijven de Europese handel in genoteerde derivaten domineren.
De Europese Commissie heeft handelshuizen, beurzen en andere marktpartijen om hun mening gevraagd over de fusie van NYSE Euronext, eigenaar van de Amsterdamse beurs, en Deutsche Börse.
Zij kregen uitgebreide vragenlijsten in te vullen. Ook Nasdaq OMX heeft gereageerd op dat verzoek om informatie, zo meldde zakenwebsite Financial News donderdag.
De Amerikaanse beurs die eerder een rivaliserend bod op NYSE Euronext introk, trekt fel van leer. De combinatie van de derivatenmarkten Liffe, van NYSE Euronext, en Eurex van Deutsche Börse is volgens Nasdaq ‘vernietigend’ voor de competitie. De vereniging van Europese effectenhandelshuizen heeft van de zomer al een negatieve reactie naar Brussel gestuurd op de gevolgen van de fusieplannen van NYSE Euronext en Deutsche Börse voor de derivatenhandel.
‘Wat ons hindert is dat de macht van een grote partij in het nadeel werkt van concurrenten’, licht Meijer de bezwaren van TOM toe, in de zijlijn van een bijeenkomst van BinckBank-aandeelhouders in Amsterdam. ‘Zo hebben wij pas toegang tot de Euronext-optiemarkt in Amsterdam gekregen na tussenkomst van de rechter.’
Meijer wil dat toezichthouders sneller en daadkrachtiger kunnen ingrijpen wanneer een grote speler concurrentie dwarsboomt.
TOM wil eind dit jaar beginnen met de handel in opties op Amsterdamse aandelen en daarmee de strijd aangaan met de Amsterdamse optiebeurs van NYSE Euronext.
Aandeelhouder en oprichter Binck Bank verwacht dat de kosten die het maakt voor de handel in effecten dan flink gaan dalen. Gemiddeld rekent Euronext circa ¤7,50 voor een optietransactie van tien orders. De verwachting is dat TOM daar ver onder gaat zitten. Of dat ook leidt tot hogere marges voor Binck Bank kon bestuurder Nick Bortot van de Nederlandse retail broker donderdag niet zeggen.
Een (deel van) het kostenvoordeel wordt mogelijk doorgegeven aan de klant
everyone wants their business to be the monopoly and its suppliers and customers to be fragmented ..you want to internalize all the pricing power possible.. thats what govt lobbying, regulatory capture is for.. econ 101 .. next topic pls ..
exactly. and fragmentation precludes rational price formation.
how do you mean preclude rational price formation ? fragmentation is perfect for price formation .. thats the definition of perfectly competitive economy, you are price taker, price gets defined at correct levels because of perfect competition ..
dark pools
‘dark matter
no reliable market depth
few genuine resting orders
exchange supported icebergs
cancels ack’d faster than new’s
Off topic, just wondering what sort of daily P/L you’re looking for when trading a bank book (SG/BNP/DB stuff) at the moment at shops like optiver/IMC/Tibra??
Could you be fired if you make money but not “enough” considering the huge vol right now?
‘no reliable market depth’
go home to your mamma,
‘Off topic, just wondering what sort of daily P/L you’re looking for’
you are really way off topic .. in fact you seem to not even know what the game is all about .. but pls dont give up, keep trying,
100k euro / day minimum for optiver and tibra dude
Keep on dreaming buddy. Most days of 2009 and 2010 neither IMC nor Optiver managed to make 1000k euro (before costs). Factor in the 250 traders each and the less than 4000 euros (avg) per traders really isn’t that awe inspiring as some here would lead you to believe. It goes without saying that the biggest swinging dicks are to be found in IB. There you will find the guys bringing home the real moolah.
Optiver and IMC had 10 mil euro days in July and August. Tibra is also a serious contender – (not that big but enough for a smaller sized company)
All the old school pit monkeys who proud themselves on broker connections and having 10 years+ experience (half of which was spent clerking) have got run over big time. all you pit monkeys should just sit back at home and take care of your children with whatever you have.
Your days are over. Its the young smart energetic computer gamers who will rule this space now.
‘It goes without saying that the biggest swinging dicks are to be found in IB. There you will find the guys bringing home the real moolah.’
what are you talking about, prop desks have been wrapped up .. the mm desks just take opposite side of bank’s clients and eat up fat margin .. they barely get paid any big percentage of p&l generated since its the house thats generating it, not the execution/mm trader in bank .. he is still in bank and not in hedge fund because he would get killed in prop on day one ..
8:51 pm LAMO “computer gamers who will rule this space now.” Pathetic.
i heard susqy guy made 28 mil in the jap earthquake… 17mil just on the limit down day
yeah sig guy was Ben C
was he masively long nky far otm options ?
‘computer gamers who will rule this space now’
Not really, but close enough,
‘It goes without saying that the biggest swinging dicks are to be found in IB. There you will find the guys bringing home the real moolah.’
You mean guys like the UBS guy?
No not like this UBS guy or Kerviel or Leeson blah blah.. disciplined market makers do okay in banks, proper traders leave and open up Brevan howard, those sort of guys are the big swinging dick.. this UBS guy like kerveil and leeson was in back office 5 years before and never really understood what trading is abt .. its definitely definitely not punting recklesslesly ..
any news on how this kweku guy dropped 2bil ?
what do you expect to happen on weekend, its not a merger or a bailout >?!
No bailout so heng heng on monday !
No Bailout so heng heng on Monday
how do you mean heng heng, is it some chinese proverb abt art of war ?
Well, that’s the end of promoting IT to the desk. Wait, that never happens anyway. Dream on developers.
http://www.gsetnewthinking.com/
nothing new, all the sell side people pitch & sell.. banks, brokers, algo house, software, quant models, research, data et al.. they all sell .. they sell dreams, they sell hope, thats their business.. marketing 101, next topic pls,
traders are sales people, selling product, selling themselves, selling that they are necessary to make microsecond markets.
‘” traders are sales people, selling product, selling themselves, selling that they are necessary to make microsecond markets.”
I’d like to sell you, but you are worthless unfortunately
ok… Just a simple question. What is considered a good pnl for a trader in one of the market makers mentioned above in a year???
enough of this what is considered a good P&L and blah blah .. just be patient and you’ll soon see why P&L is not all that important initially and how contingent it is on trading book and trading conditions ..
‘traders are sales people, selling product, selling themselves, selling that they are necessary to make microsecond markets.’
sorry to hear that you are a sales trader or execution trader or something of that sorts .. in which case you should stop refering to yourself as a trader .. traders are not really like you, so dont call yourself a trader when you are not actually punting .. sales trading, execution and sorts are not trading, get real,
nor is being a market maker for that matter
you are just pushing the buttons on your fancy, expensive IT system – you are not trading
The only traders are sales people, and discretionary punters. Everything else is tech support.
Selling is a trade.
Taking directional risk is a trade.
Microsecond quote adjustment is tech support.
1:58 pm: you sound like one of the disgruntled old farts from the days in the pit who couldn’t quite cut it in screen based trading
either way, as long as the bonus is right, i couldn’t care less what you call me
enough of this what is considered a good P&L and blah blah .. just be patient and you’ll soon see why P&L is not all that important initially and how contingent it is on trading book and trading conditions ..
A simple number is what I was looking for. Your pay / bonus/ lifestyle depend on it correct?? range will be ok aswell 0-5M 5-10M 10-15M? 15-20M 20+? The only reason i ask is that a family friend is applying to these firms and was asking.
you are a moron, if there was a simple number, you would have known by now.. ask your family friend to do his own research, trading is best done researching and executing independently, not seconded to a half-wit dumb ass.. trading 101 .. next topic pls ..
‘nor is being a market maker for that matter
you are just pushing the buttons on your fancy, expensive IT system – you are not trading’
As an IT guy you haven’t sat on Stoxx50 flow desk have you? all right quickly IT guy, do u want to be long 100k vega or short 100k vega and what abt Gamma, you want to be long or short and how much, do you want to have some open delta as a proxy hedge for your naked vega/gamma position, any position on skew or term structure, what about synthetics/dividends or rates, how about rolling over the deltas on expiry?
‘nor is being a market maker for that matter
you are just pushing the buttons on your fancy, expensive IT system – you are not trading’
Man it’s so annoying when people start babbling about things they have no fucking clue about, spend 6 months in an intense flow desk while using your head constantly and then start opening your mouth..
‘Selling is a trade.’
partially correct, sourcing from raw materials and then finding buyers, collecting margin, that is classic trading .. punters are more of speculators then a classic trader .. sales traders and execution traders should be calling themselves agency brokers, execution specialist or something of sorts .. calling themselves traders is just stupid .. just because you put a buy order over BBG or on phone and your name appears in the ‘Trader’ field doesn’t make you a trader if in fact you are not deciding the trade size/direction yourself ..
‘Microsecond quote adjustment is tech support.’
Microsecond quote adjustment is integral part of flow options trader/ hi-freq market making book, if you don’t understand what’s the difference between that trading responsibility and the tech support, then just ask, stop blabbering ..
‘nor is being a market maker for that matter
you are just pushing the buttons on your fancy, expensive IT system – you are not trading’
it is true. And before you give me that old retort of being an IT nerd, and WTF would i know, i have been trading for over a decade and still going – so i must know a thing or two
the only true traders are at banks and macro funds. To be a genuine trader, you must take genuine risk, not simply manage a an orc system and have a constant target of flat risks
@10:49 pm what’s the difference between that trading responsibility and the tech support?
@10:42pm Are you making more on punting greeks, or on spread capture?
BRW Young Rich List is out. Can anyone see if the Tibra guys appear on it again? Last year they did. I can’t access it from overseas without paying for a subscription (and I am certainly not one of the young rich).
If it’s up to the EU soon there won’t be any HFT anymore. From fd yesterday in an article about the transaction tax:
“De Commissie rekent erop dat flitshandel met lage marges Europa zal verlaten. ‘Maar dat heeft toch geen toegevoegde waarde voor de reële economie’, is de redenering in Brussel.”
Then these useless discussion about what is trading and what is not will finally end. Thank God.
Btw I hope the EU politicians will also leave. They also don’t have any added value for the real economy.
Haha sucks to be european. Your dear leaders are going to use this crisis to force you into a fully federated EUSSR and then off to the gulag for all you bourgeoisie.
‘BRW Young Rich List is out. Can anyone see if the Tibra guys appear on it again?’
Nobody cares,
‘what’s the difference between that trading responsibility and the tech support?’
Trading is buying and selling with levels of discretion built in it .. tech support is way too generic to be bothered about defining it ..
‘Are you making more on punting greeks, or on spread capture?’
Both of course, there is healthy risk taking on flow desk, but delta punting is mostly no no,
‘it is true’
You don’t know what you are talking about,
‘i have been trading for over a decade and still going – so i must know a thing or two’
If you have to use your resume to defend your argument, then you definitely don’t know what you are talking about,
‘the only true traders are at banks and macro funds. To be a genuine trader, you must take genuine risk, not simply manage a an orc system and have a constant target of flat risks’
Punters are Speculators and not really traders in the actual meaning of word .. trading is buying and selling, not speculating/punting .. mm on flow book have business model of scalping and there isn’t more accurate reflection of the verb trading than that .. they are not there to speculate, they can do the punting within their own time and money ..
@8:36 am Cheers mate. Keep it up!
@ 08:37
Hahaha … the best traders are the ones that are done before 10 yrs of practise ….. 🙂
The best trader makes the most money with the lowest risk.
You can find one in the MM area, if you are minimizing the downside, and you can find one in the hedge fund area, if you look at absolute profit.
For many, the second appeals. Sky is the limit. Problem is that luck might have been a major force for someone. In the first case luck is non-existing. It is useless to compare, different professions and in both you can excell, and earn a lot.
Not so long ago we sailed with our superior boats to some jungle country, forced the local inhabitants to carry the spices on board. Back in Europe we sold it around.
Were we operating a fancy floating system? Or is this trading?
http://nimda.kogan.com.au/media/uploads/coverage/20110922_-_brw_-_young_rich_-_ruslan_kogan.pdf
Danny Bhandari, Tim Berry, Kinsey Cotton, Glenn Williamson and Christian King are still on the list.
offshore accounts in Curacao ? Dutch antilles ?
Still doubt the whole billionaire talk
‘Hahaha … the best traders are the ones that are done before 10 yrs of practise ….. :-)’
what are you talking about ?
‘The best trader makes the most money with the lowest risk.’
there is risk/return metric commonly used call sharpe ratio, everybody is trying to get that high .. of course alternative funds are all about absolute return, so a huge up return can distort the sharpe ratio, blah blah ..
‘Were we operating a fancy floating system? Or is this trading?’
Pretty close definition of what is trading ..
‘Still doubt the whole billionaire talk’
who cares .. but you can make fair bit of money investing your own cash .. if you can use the trading skills for your own cash, you can really create good wealth .. paulson has most of his money in gold, thats why he has done so well ..
How is spread capture not IT dependent currently?
cant believe all those tibra assholes are worth 30 mil.
‘so for you to suggest that the gold price is the *primary* source of his wealth is just nonsense.’
you are a distracted moron, when did i say it was his *primary* source of his wealth ?
‘it’s a pity optiver uses him as a manager rather than a trader’
yah optiver hasnt figured good manager vs good trader thing .. they have had some exceptional managers and exceptional traders but if they are positioned other way around, then that leads to a big mess very quickly ..
‘cant believe all those tibra assholes are worth 30 mil’
30 mil is nothing, stop being a small timer,
‘How is spread capture not IT dependent currently?’
what are you talking about ?
‘but as far as the paulson comparison is concerned, you don’t have a clue. ‘
i have a clue that you are a rather well known asshole,
‘his fund made a killing in 2007/2008 thanks to the subprime crisis’
this is very well known, fund was up 650% or some, made 20bn in profits, his share of 20% was 4bn,
‘most of his wealth is invested in his own fund(s) which has done very poorly this year’
again well known, the advantage funds are down, 40% and 30% respectively, but the trick would be to invest in gold denominated shares of those funds which havent performed as badly .. the point i was trying to make was how he was up 5bn in 2010 and how most of his wealth is invested in gold denomination rather as dollar denomination … dont bother extrapolating to your own convenience, not everyone here is a moron,
3:48 pm: “when did i say it was his *primary* source of his wealth”
Answer:
8:42 am “paulson has most of his money in gold, THATS [emphasis mine] why he has done so well” [as opposed to the subprime amd subsequent performance fees?]
BTW, the rise in gold prices this year is insufficient to make up for the -30% and -40% in the dollar denominated funds, so exactly HOW has “he done so well” with his own money??? In other words, how is losing 17% of your money good? Because he could have lost 40%??
http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-07/paulson-s-largest-hedge-fund-said-to-lose-34-this-year-after-august-rout
’emphasis mine’
yah both the emphasis and misinterpretation is yours .. let me give you the correct interpretation which you might have picked up if you were not such a douchebag/moron .. since you already know the background of paulson, lets go back to 07 when his 3bn dollar hedge fund earned 20bn in profits, he was up 4bn personally from it .. in 2010 he made personally 5bn and his wealth stood at 15bn+ .. lets look at renaissance counterpart jim simmons who is up 10bn + having started making half bn + numbers from 2004 right to this year .. very consistent 1-2 bn every year .. not like paulson who after being long 4bn went on to doubling it twice over in next three years primarily first from profiting on way down and then way up mostly on financials and of course being long gold all along .. of course he would have done well even without gold, but gold having gone from 600 in 07 to 1800 now has helped a lot specially as he has been keeping most of his wealth generated in gold .. unlike simmons .. again dont extrapolate too much from the above .. you have a bad habit of it ..
‘the rise in gold prices this year is insufficient to make up for the -30% and -40% in the dollar denominated funds’
agreer,
‘HOW has “he done so well” with his own money’
he was upto 15bn + last year in his personal wealth.. he hasnt generated 15bn*5 = 75bn for his investor .. he did generate 20 bn in 07 and took 4bn cut .. thereafter he took that 4bn and double it twice over in next 3 years .. thats bloody good performance .. actually best ever in entire history of financial speculation .. so the correct statement should be that this is the best ever performance with your own money ..
‘In other words, how is losing 17% of your money good? Because he could have lost 40%??’
agreer, 2007-2010 was one era for him ..best performance in personal wealth generation through financial speculation .. 2011 onwards is another era quite possibly .. if you look at more of his history, he was unknown and unrecommended previous of 2007 .. the guy who helped him with subprime trade had quit sometime back to start his own fund .. so what seems to have been golden period betting big on correct asset price movt, soros style, has now come to an end .. 07-10 seems like an aberration more than a rule .. you cant become soros or dalio one fine morning, really, specially if you havent demonstrated any such qualities before .. paulson could indeed end up going as a one timer .. so yah he might not be all that good if he squanders it all by trying to trade when he doesnt know how to .. but still, the personal wealth creation through financial speculation from 07-10 is best ever .. and that was the point .. though i suspect soros is around there too since he seems to have gone from 8bn to 22bn in last few years .. but then he wasnt starting from zero as was the case for paulson …
actually trading your own money seems to work pretty well for soros, paulson, simmons and stephen cohen but lesser for dalio and druckenmiller .. simmons eg is the rather ugly one .. the medallion fund open only to staff has done much better than other renaissance fund open to investors ..
Dude, you need to be more concise and read what you write before you press the submit button. And it would be nice if 90% of the comments on this blog are not from you. Less is more, you know?
“paulson has most of his money in gold, thats why he has done so well”
The guy has made a tremendous amount of money, that is not being debated. You started this discussion by implying that for the most part his amassed fortune is due to his gold investments. Read the quote again. It’s nonsense. He started buying gold in 2009 (at which point in time he was already up more than 5 billion in personal wealth), it accounted for around 15% of his fund investments. About as much as he put into Citibank + BoA to put things into perspective. If he hadn’t bought an ounce of gold he would still be at 12+ billion. Succesful? Very much so. Thanks to gold? Not really. His gold investments have not prevented fund losses in 2011, we agree on that.
As for “doubling his wealth twice” … it’s called leverage. He manages a multiple of his own wealth and takes a healthy performance fee that translated to 4-5 billion in his best years. He didn’t double his (fund/personal) investments (as in: a 100% performance) post-subprime, he made shitloads in fees, enough to double his personal wealth. He spreads his bets over several funds, so he’s bound to rake in some fees left or right. He buys gold and offers investors gold denominated share classes … if the gold price tanks (i.e. he loses money in one of his funds), the gold denominated fund outperformes (he collects a performance fee in that fund). Etcetera. Etcetera. It’s a clever business model. But not one that will continue to double his wealth. Not that taking home a couple of billion is anything to be ashamed of.
As for Simons: the guy lost billions in the fund that was open to the public, at the same time he was making billions in the closed fund (for himself and his Renaissance buddies). Things that make you go hmmm.
can we please boot the guy who keeps saying yah instead of yeah and talking about penises all the time? so tiring.
Surely capturing the spread when making an options market is entirely dependent on IT because a trader cannot adjust price fast enough to not be arb’d when the underlying moves? Is this not correct? Please explain.
@8:06
Bid/ask adjustments when the underlying moves are made by the software but so is calculating the theoretical price in the first place.
However this is not the reason why firms would hire an expensive IT-force if that is your question.
Why do most market making firms hire an expensive IT-force?
Speed is number one; a quicker connection than the competition, and we are talking miliseconds here, make a difference catching the trades with a lot of profit or not.
Creating and improving software to take away as many human tasks (and errors) as possible is reason two, endgoal being the creation of an intelligent computer trader.
stop sounding so glam and talk at the level of guy who asked the question,
Even IT cant adjust visible quotes fast enough .. the point .. there are two types of quotes, visible quotes which are slow to update and so are lot wider .. they are also taken off completely in case of underlying being volatile.. hidden quotes are the real game .. they are fill or kill orders sent by all mm when they see bid too high or offer too low .. optiver was winning those against AO .. so expensive IT is definitely part of game but trader decides whether he prefers going for high bid or low offer for him to be filled against..
of course in case of timberhill, this human trader part is automated primarily since their edge might be retail flow rather than a human trader capability ..
‘so tiring’
Go get fucked, nobody gives a shit..
‘Less is more, you know?’
Stop preaching and just stick to your fucking point,
‘You started this discussion by implying that for the most part his amassed fortune is due to his gold investments.’
No that was your moronic misinterpretation,
‘If he hadn’t bought an ounce of gold he would still be at 12+ billion.’
Are you his bloody accountant where are you coming up with figure from, been smelling up paulson’s butt or something ?
‘Thanks to gold? Not really’
I corrected myself to – Gold has helped and not the only trick; the more important point I was trying to emphasis on ‘trading your own cash’ is clearly getting lost in all your blabbering ..
‘it’s called leverage’
No it was CDS with few percentage in premium paying you huge amounts in case of defaults .. CDS can’t be called leverage .. leverage is huge losses or huge profits on capital .. in case of CDS it was few percentage points of premium but huge payoff in case of default .. but then you are bit stupid,
‘He didn’t double his (fund/personal) investments (as in: a 100% performance) post-subprime, he made shitloads in fees, enough to double his personal wealth’
That makes no sense, he went from 0 to 4 in 07 and how can he then go to 15+ in 10 if he wasn’t punting his own money that he got in fees in 07,
‘He spreads his bets over several funds, so he’s bound to rake in some fees left or right’
Again makes no sense, Fees is 20% and he hasn’t generated 75bn for his investors .. fees is much smaller part of game from 08 ..
‘if the gold price tanks (i.e. he loses money in one of his funds), the gold denominated fund outperformes (he collects a performance fee in that fund).’
Haha, now that’s some black magic ..
‘It’s a clever business model.’
Agreer, he can be the first in and then build on the ponzi scheme for a particular trade idea .. works around high water mark too for a fund.. having several funds is the oldest trick in the hedge fund book .. yet you still find it extremely clever ..
‘As for Simons: the guy lost billions in the fund that was open to the public, at the same time he was making billions in the closed fund (for himself and his Renaissance buddies). Things that make you go hmmm.’
Why are you repeating what I said – ‘simmons eg is the rather ugly one .. the medallion fund open only to staff has done much better than other renaissance fund open to investors ..’
on second thoughts, CDS is really a binary option, so yes leverage was there .. in an option format, leverage sometimes can get blurred under limited liability .. in delta one format however leverage is visible right up front ..
-on second thoughts, CDS is really a binary option, so yes leverage was there .. in an option format, leverage sometimes can get blurred under limited liability .. in delta one format however leverage is visible right up front ..
@11:40
‘stop sounding so glam and talk at the level of guy who asked the question,’
that was coming down to his level already..any more simple and i was baby-yapping
Does any one have a source for the amounts claimed that paulson is worth? i have heard it is less than a billion
i laugh at the guy who belittles the tibra guys worth 30 million, how much are you worth?
nobody is belittling bhandari .. is just that there are other people out there in US/UK/China who have done much much better .. so dont waste your energy getting jealous of bhandari and try getting some motivation out of some other bigger stories ..
‘that was coming down to his level already..any more simple and i was baby-yapping’
The guy asking is really a baby in the biz, otherwise he wouldn’t be asking something so basic ..
point is if the trader adds all the value, then why so much IT, and if IT adds so much value, why do developers ask for so little.
most traders think IT investments are too big and they can do without although at the same time will always complain they are not the quickest.
most owners/topmanagement will invest in IT cause they dream of developing a system where they will not have to pay any traders but can keep all for themselves. IT will not ask too much as they know they are replaceable much more easily plus it is much harder to quantify how much they are really contributing.
if IT were the key, a group of dev guys could setup a shop. doesn’t seem to happen though.
10:08
i’m dreaming of a system where we can do without “topmanagement” ’cause they don’t contribute anything in the first place and only steal money from those who made the p&l
buddy you dont have to dream, you just open your own trading company, put your own capital, hire your own IT and make some P&L as a trader … you dont even have to share with management or other traders no more ..
‘if IT were the key, a group of dev guys could setup a shop. doesn’t seem to happen though.’
Reminds me of time when an IT Developer said that soon there’ll be just automated machines left trading .. there be no human traders no more, just trading machines competing with each other .. that was a significant moment of truth .. of how ignorant IT Developers could be when it came to knowing how trading/markets work ..
‘most traders think IT investments are too big and they can do without although at the same time will always complain they are not the quickest.’
Traders banter the whole day long, so expect them to say stuff which is not meant in all seriousness, doesn’t mean if you put the trader in charge of company, he’ll hack IT and hire more traders .. its just a banter, not to be taken seriously, how old are you ?
‘point is if the trader adds all the value, then why so much IT, and if IT adds so much value, why do developers ask for so little.’
Son, it’s time for you to grow up .. world is not black and white .. there are plenty of greys, bonuses are negotiated, performances are subjective .. get in with how real world works and stop putting everything in black and white ..
Is this God commenting on all these comments?
@12:09
The point which was tried to be made was that a trader who is doing well does not feel the need to invest millions from which returns may never be seen (not saying to fire all IT) and prefers getting paid more on the day.
Turn the trader into the man in charge and he naturally gets different interests.
that was @12:08 not 12:09
A trader who is doing well can either go join a company which will pay higher % of p&L generated and/or punt his own cash and/or open his own company and decide how much IT he wants and of course he gets to eat whatever he kills .. its capitalism, if you don’t like it, feel to pack your bags and leave, the exit door is on far right hand side ..
‘Is this God commenting on all these comments?’
No ?