Eclipse expanding. Again.
Once upon a time, all market makers in Amsterdam received calls on their cell phone from headhunters. Jobs offered at a mysterious firm. A market maker from the pacific, Eclipse. At the time it was a rather unknown company, founded by the former head of trading of Optiver Pacific. Too cut a long story short, Eclipse hired some former IMC traders and failed earning a dime in Europe. Believed they lasted less than a year, in the former Optiver building in the city center.
A little bit of history repeating perhaps – as Eclipse is opening offices again in Sydney and in Stamford, Connecticut. Can’t really understand the rationale behind the new American office, as I understood this one is basically for developers. Scores of technical developers available in the USA – but right in the middle of hedge fund mecca they won’t show up for typical Hong Kong wages.
that moron ex-IMC trader at Eclipse was trying to hedge short esx vols by buying dax vols .. this was in the glory days of PIGS panic breaking out .. the time of flash crash in first half of 2010 .. that genius seemed puzzled when the esx-dax spread kept on diverging and wasnt mean reverting as he had been salivating about .. i had respect for IMC at that moment ..
and obv respect for Eclipse for hacking .. i admire this about optiver people .. ex or current .. they are forever ready to hack .. thats such a strong source of strength while trading, hacking losses/losers ..
you mean, up until that moment. right?
“but right in the middle of hedge fund mecca they won’t show up for typical Hong Kong wages.”
Yeah they will.. MM developers — the dumbest smart ppl on the planet.
‘you mean, up until that moment. right?’
good point .. i am mean that guy had survived at IMC for all those years, i dont know how .. but he was hacked finally and that was respect .. IMC seem to have pretty okay recently .. specially in americas ..
‘Yeah they will.. MM developers — the dumbest smart ppl on the planet.’
the correlations in markets useful for algo trading is at highest, it cant get better than this, it makes you think if its only downside to come for that part of industry ..
I am about to finish university and looking for a good employer who pays top dollar to outstanding talent. Is Eclipse a good place to apply for? What is their bonus deal like?
I would try ‘van der Moolen’ or Intal if I were you.
lol
try ‘Goed Gedaan Opties’
‘ looking for a good employer who pays top dollar to outstanding talent’
apply to all banks, hedge funds, market makers.. if you get more than one offer, let us know and we’ll help you pick one of them ..
also apply to all such commodity trading group like glencore and independent trading group like getco ..
try work in the HF industry I tell you now having worked at a MM, its a slower paced, nicer people (by that I mean less arrogant little boy big shot traders) & generally better environment.
@ 10:20am: Keep living with your parents. Bonus deal is a new and exciting excuse every year, until you’re finally fired n replaced by a younger keener & even smarter you. think about it from their perspective.
Does anyone have any idea how little/large the profits are at eclipse?
Profits are small. Around 15-20 million usd net since they started. but difficult to compare with Tibra as much smaller company
Surely not that small since the start. That is hopeless. Tibra make more than that in one year from the hong kong desk
Who is running the oz office? Same guy that was sacked from optiver?
> Tibra make more than that in one year from the hong kong desk
Sweet dreams…
Tony Stephens, the founder of eclipse, is another guy bitter at the success of the Tibra founders because he was their boss at Optiver and sees them beneath him.
tibra was in right place at right time, i dont think even they can repete their own success that they managed in 2007-2009 .. Tony should be smart about this ..
‘Keep living with your parents. Bonus deal is a new and exciting excuse every year, until you’re finally fired n replaced by a younger keener & even smarter you. think about it from their perspective.’
i refer to it as bonus carrot .. its been 4 years, so i know the drill very well .. either you are made a partner and get dividends or its matter of time before you pack up or are packed out .. bonus carrot is just what it is .. a carrot for the donkeys ..
@ its been 4 years, so i know the drill very well .. either you are made a partner and get dividends or its matter of time before you pack up or are packed out
Optiver takes very good care of its employees. Never happens there.
@ Tony Stephens, the founder of eclipse, is another guy bitter at the success of the Tibra founders because he was their boss at Optiver and sees them beneath him.
Tony is very old school optiver, risk averse unlike the Butcher. Tibra’s success may to some extent prick him, but he is building his company steadily with very few people.
i have heard that bhandari is heading up the US team for Eclipse. masterful stroke by stevens to mend bridges and bury the hatchet with the great one. play the ball,not the man
Tony STEVENS is a great employer …. the fact none of you can spell his name correctly proves you are idiots.
o.k. we will Tony!
‘Optiver takes very good care of its employees. Never happens there.’
Either you are stupid or sarcastic or delusional ..
so again .. why was bhandari kicked out of tibra ? its not much clear what happened ..
stealing office stationary
…those rubber things you put on your index finger, i believe.
was he tryng that on his
“that moron ex-IMC trader at Eclipse was trying to hedge short esx vols by buying dax vols .. this was in the glory days of PIGS panic breaking out .. the time of flash crash in first half of 2010 .. that genius seemed puzzled when the esx-dax spread kept on diverging and wasnt mean reverting as he had been salivating about .. i had respect for IMC at that moment ..”
NAME AND SHAME PLEASE!!!
who was it?
about those moronic ex-imc traders, would you classify them as suffering from profound, severe, moderate or mild mental retardation?
They sound like book smart dorks who think too much and do too little.
‘who was it?’
i am sure you can guess, he was 6-7 years IMC, did options mm and then some spread/arb .. this site actually had a note on when IMC got rid of 2 senior people before bonus round ..
‘about those moronic ex-imc traders, would you classify them as suffering from profound, severe, moderate or mild mental retardation?’
i think he was just surrounded by stupid people .. sometime poor company has got lot of effect on you ..
‘They sound like book smart dorks who think too much and do too little.’
its more like experienced people who think they cant get it wrong .. ever again ..
c’mon, fess up .. which spooz mm blew up last night?
& July 5th, 2011 at 5:02 pm
+1
fkn donkeys.
how do you mean ?
@ c’mon, fess up .. which spooz mm blew up last night?
Makes no sense dude. Elaborate. No volatility. no one blowing up
he’s extrapolating exponentially .. black swan style ..
somehting about an s&p local.
I hear that Eclipse is already doing very well in Australia. Not trading many names but dominating in the ones they are looking at.
How many Traders do they have in Sydney?
I had an interview with the head trader at Eclipse in Sydney. He seemed really on the ball and far more experienced than the guys who interviewed me at Tibra and IMC.
Unfortunately he didn’t give me the job though!
“He seemed really on the ball and far more experienced than the guys who interviewed me at Tibra and IMC.
Unfortunately he didn’t give me the job though!”
perhaps you should give up?!
what is eclipses bonus deal? 40%?
‘He seemed really on the ball and far more experienced than the guys who interviewed me at Tibra and IMC.’
just because u havent met them, doesnt mean there arent exceptional people in Tibra/IMC .. sounds you are bit stupid, thats why you didnt get the job ?
@10:14 am
+1
real experience as real traders.
@ 1:58 pm
-1
donkey needs to see the world outside of IMCibra nerd fantasy land.
some skew trade blew up a local. not news.
“Makes no sense dude. Elaborate. No volatility. no one blowing up”
hey guys i have a question for you. i am a business graduate and will make my msc in finance (both in the netherlands), do you think i will have a chance for an interview as an junior trader at one of the market makers in amsterdam?
i know that there are some senior business graduates who are traders in amsterdam, however i heard a couple of times that competition became more intense and that those firms would only hire people with quantitative background and programming skills.
maybe yes, maybe not .. does it matter ? you try, try and try .. dont worry about the results .. if you get it, great.. if not, then you move on .. trust me, its worth the effort ..
the guys who take home the most do not have a quantitative background nor programming skills. these skills are a distinct disadvantage if you want to be rewarded. on the other hand, if you like being treated like a bitch .. bone up on C++.
who is running the sydney office for eclipse?
Moonface
apparently he is some real trader, with real trading experience whatever that means…..
I know this is kind of out of what everyone is discussing but… anyone know of hedgefunds wherever that hedge with kospi options? or any Korean derivative products? non DMA/HFT that is…
@ 5:56 am
as opposed to douches adjusting a vol param for a living.
if their infrastructure were slower they would not be “traders”.
‘apparently he is some real trader, with real trading experience whatever that means…..’
that means he takes risk in the market and not the other side of the client trades .. also while pricing and hedging, he uses real world experience rather than a number produce from a pricing model ..
@ 9:43 am yup, more than just another high-speed dork kingdom.
there seems to be general belief that high freq is free money .. but that money is very very limited, so start with assumption – pool of that money is already been won away by the leader and most others, pretty much every one really, is actively taking risk
Profits are small. Around 15-20 million usd net since they started. but difficult to compare with Tibra as much smaller company.
Yes smaller, but building their own system without stealing source codes. And I find it hard to believe that the people at Eclipse who trained and co-worked with principals at both Optiver and Tibra didn’t capture the market panic of 07-08. Pretty childish talks. Only muppets at IMC lost money and these were the same idiots that Eclipse hired and then hacked.
I am surprised that Eclipse only opened Australian market just now. As with the guy running the shop there, i would like to see you trade against him.
Optiver was up 12mil one of those panic-stricken mornings .. yah, its a pretty childish talk indeed ..
i dont need to beat soros or paulson or ur small dick trader at eclipse aussie .. there are plenty other morons in the market .. trading is making money, not beating someone .. you havent even learnt trading lesson 101
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-08/goldman-said-to-seize-dbs-options-as-eji-balks-at-margin-call.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-08/goldman-said-to-seize-dbs-options-as-eji-balks-at-margin-call.html
“Yes smaller, but building their own system without stealing source codes.”
LOL! “Building” as opposed to “built”? It only took Tibra five months to build a basic electronic eye from scratch.
And if Eclipse is only up 15-20 million USD since they started, then they most certainly did not capture the market panic in 07/08.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/FCAFC/2008/133.html
This case should never have gotten past preliminary discovery, although I’m sure the lawyers are happy that it did. It seems fair that the legal bill will eventually be paid by Optiver since they were the ones going into it under false pretenses.
Stealing is stealing. Its amazing how great Tibra is when they built a system almost identical to optivers in 5 months with the same people that built optivers. Btw an electronic eye is to a system like an eye to a person. 5 months to build a small part to a system is nothing special. You should go to IT 101
“Its amazing how great Tibra is when they built a system almost identical to optivers in 5 months with the same people that built optivers.”
You call that stealing? The same bunch of people writing a system twice? You should go to IP 101. When you graduate, please tell me which part of “this bid is above my theoretical price, I want to sell it” is Optiver’s intellectual property?
Tell that to ur jail mate. He would be interested learning about ur intepretation of IP.
Eclipse is and will remain small time shits with crap financial management. That is why they haven’t paid anyone a meaningful bonus since they started except the partners. They made usd 35mio the first year in hk warrants and distributed all the money to the founders which are tony, julian, jason etc oh yeah and that guy gregg who is supposed to be a cto/trader but nobody really knows what he does…. maybe its because he doesnt actually do anything?
The problem though is that now with close to 60 employees they are only making about usd 12mio a year…. not working so well huh?
As for their IT it sucks worse than your granny so to all the freshies out there, if you really wanna get raped you know where to go.
fair warning
“electronic eye” .. there’s a lot more too it than that. So many coder bitches .. to little time.
@ 8:40 pm +1
“Eclipse is and will remain small time shits with crap financial management…”
Well Mr so-well-informed, stating so much obvious/nonsensical statements in one go must have consumed a lot of your brain capacity. Firstly out of all the managements at the MM firms, Eclipse is amongst the few that manages with integrity. This is in comparison to Tibra’s extraordinary board meeting in Maldives to dishonest management from start to finish by Danny B, and who pays SHM to write articles about themselves or sends application in to BRW to nominate himself as the manager of the year. Only people with delusion of self grandeur. Optiver, well people from Tibra should agree with this one, with its on and off exodus since 07 it can hard be claimed they have good financial management. BTW who got paid a great bonus at Optiver/Tibra in 09/10?
In terms of profit, Eclipse is about 10th the size of IMC, and 1/5 size of Tibra. The profit per exployee is higher. So what’s wrong with keeping the business lean? Scores of young traders went to Eclipse from Optiver in 2010, doesn’t sound a shit place to me.
If anything fresh graduates should be warned about the fact you will be at the very bottom of a huge pyramid at Tibra and Optiver, you are certain to see a repeat of Optiver’s management failure at Tibra as people will flee the shop for somewhere smaller and bigger pay. To wrap it up, I think you missed the obvious point that founders at IMC, OPTIVER, TIBRA, Liquid are still the best paid at their company. Recognize.
Why did Tony Stephens leave optiver?
Everyone on this forum needs to calm down a little.
I am not sure who (if anyone) in the MM fraternity has earned a meaningful 7 figure bonus since 2008.
From what I hear, everyone is struggling relative to those glory days and will probably continue to struggle for at least another year or two, so I’m not sure that any of these companies is better than another at this stage of the business cycle. FWIW if I was a graduate, I’d probably go with a smaller business like Eclipse simply because there is far more upside than at one of the established MM’s and you’re not likely to lose anything in the short term by being at a smaller house anyway.
Tony was fired from Optiver
The guy who is running the Syd office was from Optiver too.
Was he fired as well?
yep, apparently for being too loud on the trading floor.
no one from optiver australia is loud. They are all lambs. its an irony when they got nick names like killer and butcher. The dutchies drown them out like sharks chase out gold fish
Wow big mouth dutchies. Firstly people call certain person butcher because he butchered every book he traded, and hence his departure. And despite you guys so good at trading, I am not sure if you ever received a bonus above 6 digits. And I don’t feel so threatened by the guy next to me at a pub sipping milk either, vegetarian sharks maybe?
‘http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-08/goldman-said-to-seize-dbs-options-as-eji-balks-at-margin-call.html’
4.3 percent of the 13.5 million S&P 500 contracts outstanding as of yesterday .. pretty big player !
‘This case should never have gotten past preliminary discovery, although I’m sure the lawyers are happy that it did. ‘
Didnt Tibra take orc and put in the electronic eye, thats no stealing ?
’60 employees they are only making about usd 12mio a year’
thats it ??!
‘@ 8:40 pm +1’
what does this mean ?
‘Danny B, and who pays SHM to write articles about themselves or sends application in to BRW to nominate himself as the manager of the year. ‘
whats wrong with self-promotion ?
‘To wrap it up, I think you missed the obvious point that founders at IMC, OPTIVER, TIBRA, Liquid are still the best paid at their company. Recognize.’
when did somebody claim or thought otherwise ?
‘you’re not likely to lose anything in the short term by being at a smaller house anyway.’
there is you moron, if you get kicked out of eclipse, people think you were not good enough to be hired by optiver, you were not even good enough for eclipse who fired you, now go get fucked .. you are so stupid to not be able to see this scenario ..
‘Tony was fired from Optiver’
what was the reason ?
‘guy next to me at a pub sipping milk’
sounds more like a dork rather than a stupid trader .. he could be extremely good trader who doesnt give a shit abt what a loud mouth small dick loser sitting next to him thinks about his sipping milk in pub .. he’s that good ..
too many excited 20 year olds, too little market inefficiency. this whole game is fucked. better off selling stock to insto morons over the phone & charging comms… saturation point in the mm space, while traditional low tech brokers enjoy the tight spreads.. we are all irrational dumbasses, competing for a diminishing pie.
btw Optiver geniuses — pedestrians can see your screens from Hunter street.
man if you are getting too old for the game or cant see the market inefficiencies or cant use your brain more than what a broker requires to sell shit .. you should have packed up already .. what are you doing around still .. only lot like you are irrational and should give up competing straight away and go back to sucking ur mama’s
some of other optiver jokers/traders can also very well see their screen but still cant make money for shit .. get real ..
“Danny B, and who pays SHM to write articles about themselves or sends application in to BRW to nominate himself as the manager of the year.”
Entrepreneur of the Year – Yes
SMH, BRW, etc. – No
July 9th 6.03am obviously works at Eclipse. Who are the “scores of people” who joined from optiver last year then?? Delusions of grandeur indeed!!!
C’mon let’s face it – you are tiny and stop bitching about the big boys who have real companies
U dont need to be working at eclipse to figure these out. And there is a difference in stating whats true and wining about someone else success. July 9th 11:40 pm, u must be a bhandari groupie, self promotion indeed when he only promoted himself and no one else knew about it at tibra. Go figure.
Tony didn’t like being deceitful unlike the rest of the optiver management. Didn’t quite fit.
“there is you moron, if you get kicked out of eclipse, people think you were not good enough to be hired by optiver, you were not even good enough for eclipse who fired you, now go get fucked”
Do you speak English?
And BTW I work in the HF industry, but have friends who work for IMC and Optiver. They are both pretty unhappy in their current jobs, despite being pretty good traders.
“HF industry” lol.
there’s more $$ to be made in the IBs, and in an IB, your colleagues are, shall we say, more interesting.
less of an uber-dork sausage fest nerd kingdom.
long story short, the experience in 2008/9 was one off latency arb, against IBs who were slow to pull their quotes when the tick rate exploded. that aint gonna happen again. now the IBs make wider spreads, or leave it entirely to the “HF industry” to make liquidity for them and their customers.
it’s great that you boys compete with each other right down to zero.
yes the IBs send flow to you in the screen, but they make more than you do, just in comms.
‘Entrepreneur of the Year – Yes
SMH, BRW, etc. – No’
why ?
‘July 9th 11:40 pm, u must be a bhandari groupie, self promotion indeed when he only promoted himself and no one else knew about it at tibra. Go figure.’
why is that if anyone doesnt badmouth bhandari, that person is claimed to be bhandari groupie ? Also, again what’s wrong with self-promotion ?
‘And BTW I work in the HF industry, but have friends who work for IMC and Optiver. They are both pretty unhappy in their current jobs, despite being pretty good traders.’
apparently you speak gibberish ?
‘there’s more $$ to be made in the IBs, and in an IB, your colleagues are, shall we say, more interesting.’
here’s one of those self-promoting small dick sales/trader from IB ..
‘And BTW I work in the HF industry, but have friends who work for IMC and Optiver. They are both pretty unhappy in their current jobs, despite being pretty good traders.’
no offence, which part of this is gibberish? Maybe your version of english is wrong, you should go to that english school that had ” I like to f$&# you in the a##” commercial. That was dutch too, very convenient for you locals.
“here’s one of those self-promoting small dick sales/trader from IB ..”
mate, if you had worked in an IB, selling stuff .. you’d know the difference.
latency – who cares.
you have HF mm experience – great, you can do tech support & fix screwy macros.
dick size – doesn’t matter. insto customers just keep coming-to-you anyway.
Good luck in the screen kids.
I doubt the majority of posters understands what you are saying, because they are not posting from nl.
More on subject: I think only the sjit companies take over leftovers with < 3 yr exp from other mm.
Choose wisely. If you choose company-x and you must leave after a year, don't expect to be welcome elsewhere.
Bottomline. Eclipse is a company which FAILED in europe, much like they will in Asia with competition on the rise. Stop givin them so much publicity.
Yep, Failure probably thabks to these IMC/Optiver geniuses they hired. Yep, left overs, are either spoiled or contaminated. Good luck.
Quit ur silly gasbagging, otherwise the communist will slap a carbon tax on ur sorry asses.
systems to blame as much as traders
Eclipse bonuses were larger than Optiver and Tibra last year
retail banking bonuses were larger than Optiver and Tibra last year
if only privately held market makers were able to borrow money for free, get bailouts when their punts didn’t work and have laws in place restricting entry to competitors. that would be sweet.
if only mkt makers realised that they are bottom feeders and reliant on banks to find end user flow that eventually feeds their sorry asses
some bitter people on this blog. the IB trader vs MM arguments are quite pathetic.
Man, you are a lunatic. MM’s make several times more than IB employees in good years. Maybe not the case in bad years, but who cares – nobody earns much in those years anyway.
Put it this way, I’d much rather 3 bucks in a good year and 250k in a bad year than 400-750 every year. No upside there.
sorry man – mkts are only getting tighter, liquidity is only getting better. All of this helps the price taker (IB) over the price maker (MM). You will arb each other out, whereas we will never have to pay away a spread again. Sucker
@7:42
You are right, a lot of traders at MM make 3 million in good years.
This
“And BTW I work in the HF industry, but have friends who work for IMC and Optiver. They are both pretty unhappy in their current jobs, despite being pretty good traders.”
as a response to this
“there is you moron, if you get kicked out of eclipse, people think you were not good enough to be hired by optiver, you were not even good enough for eclipse who fired you, now go get fucked”
is gibberish,
“mate, if you had worked in an IB, selling stuff .. you’d know the difference.
latency – who cares.
you have HF mm experience – great, you can do tech support & fix screwy macros.
dick size – doesn’t matter. insto customers just keep coming-to-you anyway.
Good luck in the screen kids.”
have a look at this and think if you might be missing a trick or two ‘www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=frog%20in%20a%20well’
‘More on subject: I think only the sjit companies take over leftovers with < 3 yr exp from other mm.
Choose wisely. If you choose company-x and you must leave after a year, don't expect to be welcome elsewhere.'
thats why these dutchies are so old school .. in a free market economy/trading, apparently you can't switch to another employer !!
‘Eclipse is a company which FAILED in europe, much like they will in Asia with competition on the rise.’
is that how you extrapolate ??!
‘Yep, left overs, are either spoiled or contaminated.’
there’s fair amount of politics and stupid management decisions, dont underestimate those,
Dude .. seriously .. frog in a what?
Frog-in-a-well: 20yo mm nerd DREAMING of driving a sports car & banging models. Lives with parents & has long commute. Knows that working in an mm is just-totally-awesome .. because it totally is, yeah.
Frog-in-a-field: a ‘grown up’ selling shit in a bank.. he has moved on from the juvenile mm ugliness, to sweeter targets & better smelling colleagues.
“You are right, a lot of traders at MM make 3 million in good years.”
= Tail event. Maybe if you hang on for just one more 70K year .. you’ll get that 3 bucks. maybe. just maybe. feeling lucky?
“sorry man – mkts are only getting tighter, liquidity is only getting better. All of this helps the price taker (IB) over the price maker (MM). You will arb each other out, whereas we will never have to pay away a spread again. Sucker”
Yep — that was 2010 .. and onward. Thank you nerd kingdom, for providing bigass liquidity to the world, while cannibalising your own niche to zero. MMs, a home for the dumbest smart people.
Love those tight tight spreads.
looks like you finally found the right invention to add couple of inches to your dick size, nice find mate ..
enjoy the spreads while it lasts .. in financial markets, these niches are hard to come by and pretty often short lived .. few years, give or take, there be another transformation of the industry ..
hey it’s the dick poster! all dick all the time! nothing but dick!
young man battling with his sexual identity?
don’t worry fella, there’s nothing wrong with that.
“if only mkt makers realised that they are bottom feeders”
What’s the difference between a catfish and a market maker?
One is a bottom feeding scum sucker, the other one is a fish
whats the difference between broker and dealer ?
one is a ass-kisser, the other is kick-ass..
What’s the difference between an IB and a market maker?
One survives only if fast, while the other is profitable half ass’d.
IB and MM are different in terms of work, culture .. it appeals and fits in different ways .. whatever cross movement possible is very limited and can be ignored for any comparison purposes ..
It is better to be a cocky confident IB than a nerdy MM even if the MM sometimes gets paid more.
IB has more longevity, and IBs get the hot chicks. The biggest excitement for MMs is having beers and playing poker with other nerds in a smelly flat.
wtf are you talking about.. the ib chicks will have you for lunch and chew you out for the dinner .. take your small dick and go park it in the whore you pay to fuck ..
all you IB traders are jokers. Macro hedge funds are where its at. IBs = Bottom Feeders.
IB traders… Oxymoron.
Seems like IB “traders” are only interested in hot chicks and dick sizes. Grow up, or get a real job.
@ 11:52 pm
+1 Macro hedge fund => IB => MM => Retail Broking => Shoot self.
@ 11:41 pm
“wtf are you talking about.. the ib chicks will have you for lunch and chew you out for the dinner”
** worth it **
@ 8:34 pm
“The biggest excitement for MMs is having beers and playing poker with other nerds in a smelly flat.”
true story dork sausage-fest star trek movie night so lame.
“IB trader = oxymoron”
why?
i think you will find that the brokers regard them as one of the best marketmakers in hk
Dit blog wordt echt steeds slechter. Volgens mij scheelt het een stuk als we gewoon in het Nederlands communiceren, dan zijn we in ieder geval verlost van al die Australische en Engelse wanna-be traders die echt helemaal niks toevoegen en worstelen met een mega minderwaardigheidscomplex.
‘** worth it **’
is it worth it to get run over by these overly excited and ambitious non-males in ib .. really ?!
‘i think you will find that the brokers regard them as one of the best marketmakers in hk’
this proves that they suck..
“IB has more longevity, and IBs get the hot chicks. The biggest excitement for MMs is having beers and playing poker with other nerds in a smelly flat.”
This is true and quite funny.
-Removed some off topic chit chat-
“that moron ex-IMC trader at Eclipse was trying to hedge short esx vols by buying dax vols .. this was in the glory days of PIGS panic breaking out .. the time of flash crash in first half of 2010 .. that genius seemed puzzled when the esx-dax spread kept on diverging and wasnt mean reverting as he had been salivating about .. i had respect for IMC at that moment ..”
Well arent you a genius? i wonder your source, someone disappointed must have had too many beers. I vaguely remember a spread set up for about 5k vega in a testing phase which went awol and cost 1 point, and that was even before your flash crash or maybe at the shy start of it. If you had seen that coming i wonder why you are still taking the effort to collect airmiles?
Someone from Eclipse commenting?!
Do I smell some big time frustration there boys … ?
Anyone with ambition would be frustrated. To read such BS as above suggesting they blew up is just a laugh though.
If your game is to be a MM and be part of a younger organisation that might grow big one day Eclipse is a save choice.
Are we banging the close today?
”’I vaguely remember a spread set up for about 5k vega in a testing phase which went awol and cost 1 point, and that was even before your flash crash or maybe at the shy start of it. ‘
did you set up that 5k spread ?
‘suggesting they blew up is just a laugh though’
Nobody suggested they blew up,
‘If your game is to be a MM and be part of a younger organisation that might grow big one day Eclipse is a save choice.’
My game is to get rich.. so I try to make a conditional probability distribution of wealth on joining a firm .. Eclipse comes as an unsafe choice ..
‘My game is to get rich.. so I try to make a conditional probability distribution of wealth on joining a firm ‘
On the basis of your continuous moronic comments I am confident the conditional probability of you being a bellend is close to one.
Who is the moron from IMC / Eclipse you are talking about ? I heard there were several with an IMC background.
‘being a bellend ‘
if you can’t stop thinking about a dick, go suck one and get it out of your system .. you have been in denial long enough ..
”
‘Entrepreneur of the Year – Yes
SMH, BRW, etc. – No’
why ?
”
Why what? None of the founders approached SMH or BRW for any publicity. They actually took steps to try and get OFF the list. We’ll see in a few months if they were successful.
when did keldoulis leave optiver? when can he start up again?
The truth is that you will never, ever make 3 mil working at ANY of the market makers. Its “theoretically” possible, but unless you are a founder or own a significant portion of the equity (which costs a fortune to acquire at current prices), you will never see that kind of money. Anyone that tells you otherwise is either trying to hire you or still believes in Santa Claus. No one at ANY of the market makers has ever made that kind of money in one year without being a founder in the past ten years (not counting equity). Even making a buck these days is near impossible, given the cost structures all these firms have; way too many mouths to feed, and most, if not all, of the guys taking the biggest pieces of the pie dont actually trade. You will not make a lot of money working at a market maker – unless you are a founder. Anyone that tells you otherwise is lying.
If you’re a grad, go for the banks, dont believe the BS about making 250k in a bad year and having upside at 3m in a good yr. That’s a founder talking up his/her own shop. At a bank you are looking at a more consistent stream of 300-700k, and in good years you will make much more. The only benefit of working at a market maker is that you get to trade a lot faster. But the pay is ridiculously low compared to a bank.
IBs are big swingers that dominate the market and dont care if they bleed cash since they fleece their clients for millions; market makers are pathetic little scavengers that spend tens of millions on technology, then dime each other to quote the tightest spreads before crapping their pants and hacking out at the end of the day, while the IBs and other price takers get filled at the best possible prices.
Tony was a prick. No one liked him. But he was also one of the best traders in the market. He got fired for having integrity and standing up for his principles. Everyone respects him, even if they dont like him.
Bhandari was a prick. No one liked him. He was by far the worst trader Tibra ever had, and they’ve had and still have plenty of shockers. Stevie Wonder would be a better trader than Bhandari. But he was also the luckiest gimp ever. He got fired from Optiver for being absolute garbage, dumped 2m into Tibra, got about 40m out of it, and the irony is that he’s probably cost the company 40m in opportunity cost. Anyone that thinks Bhandari made a meaningful contribution to Tibra is either related to him or has been in a coma all their life.
@ the real deal
I’m considering a job at a Amsterdam bank (ABN, ING, RBS, Rabobank), but is it true that you won’t really trade? You’re just executing orders for your clients. They’re not really trading (or hardly) on their own account are they? Or do you mean other IBs?
I’ve seen some traineeships in the markets department where you can end up as a junior trader. How long do you think it will take from there (or a direct application to a junior trader position) before you can really trade? And what’s the starting salary (and possible bonus)?
Thanks.
‘The truth is that you will never, ever make 3 mil working at ANY of the market makers.’
Partners in Optiver had 1.8mil payout in 2008, get your facts correct, this also doesn’t take into account that more money is made or lost trading/investing your cash,
‘You will not make a lot of money working at a market maker – unless you are a founder.’
Why are you ranting about something that is obvious?
‘At a bank you are looking at a more consistent stream of 300-700k, and in good years you will make much more.’
Those sort of positions are limited, competition extreme and senior people well entrenched .. also after 5 years if you are replaceable, you’ll be shown the door and the next bunch of zombies can take over .. get real ..
‘Anyone that thinks Bhandari made a meaningful contribution to Tibra’
Since you can’t repeat the experiment without Bhandari in it, so stop throwing random conclusions, it can’t be proven and its nothing more than an intellectual masturbation ..
‘irony is that he’s probably cost the company 40m in opportunity cost. ‘
How did that happen ?
‘I’m considering a job at a Amsterdam bank (ABN, ING, RBS, Rabobank), but is it true that you won’t really trade’
You should understand what trading means, you can be in a market making spot in Optiver adjusting parameters the whole day, you would have okayish risk limits, but the risk appetite and profit potential is low .. in a IB you would have bigger risk limits, more stealing from clients but pretty much client driven biz rather than prop, trades are initiated as counterparty to client’s and then the book is risk managed mostly by senior traders .. you could get book if you got lucky but don’t count on it, there are plenty senior traders at low going rates who can do the job these days .. the good traders/prop from banks have now been shifted out in hedge fund model as a result of dodd-frank .. those are the people managing real money and trying to generate absolute returns and grow their portfolio, fees is typical 1-2/15-20,
If you really wanna trade and get bang for buck, start trading/investing your own cash as you build it, learning and growth is lot more compared to someone paying you a discretionary bonus for risk managing their book or small cut for punting for their portfolio .. of course risk and return is all yours .. so if you are not meant to be, it’ll be very easy to know ..
‘How long do you think it will take from there (or a direct application to a junior trader position) before you can really trade’
Have you ever traded? If you are lucky maybe not too long of a wait, but a good probability of very long wait or never,
‘And what’s the starting salary (and possible bonus)’
Year 1 base salary is the most meaningless number in the whole game .. this should be obvious by now ..
Hi Mrs Bhandari, thanks for your comment
“Since you can’t repeat the experiment without Bhandari in it, so stop throwing random conclusions, it can’t be proven and its nothing more than an intellectual masturbation ..”
The truth is that Bhandari contributed $2m out of the initial $6m or so that Tibra started with. He was also kind enough to give away money to other traders in the market by trading against them throughout his career. Without his $2m Tibra would have either found the money elsewhere or traded with smaller limits for a short period of time. You have obviously never seen Bhandari trade or worked with him. The only thing bigger than his ego is his incompetence behind the screens. If you took Bhandari out of the equation Tibra would still be exactly where it is, and there are those that would bet that Tibra would actually be better off. If you measure his real contribution (not what he claims he did), you would find that there was very little substance in any of his “contributions”.
To be fair, Bhandari did do a great job promoting awareness of the success of Tibra’s founders. Whether this PR effort yields dividends is questionable, although it certainly puts Tibra in the media spotlight and helps with grad recruitment. What the grads dont realise is that only the founders are making it big, none of the traders that joined since has ever made it onto the lists and they never will if they stay there.
haterz. why don’t you all go and suck on deez nuts
| plenty of senior traders at low rates who can do the job
Ben jij bang dat er een net-afgestudeerde topper binnenkomt die jou inhaalt?
Ik zie ze graag komen. Pik jij maar lekker al die netniet figuren van imc vdm of ao op.
Een op de tien grads die door de selectie komt is echt goed.
En die maken rasse schreden. Rest hakken.
Dus, studentje, als je echt goed bent moet je niet bij een bank beginnen.
And your from…..Optiver?
‘Hi Mrs Bhandari, thanks for your comment’
Addressing some random person who is not critical of Bhandari as Mrs Bhandari is neither sarcastic, nor funny; it’s just distracting, you know that?
‘Without his $2m Tibra would have either found the money elsewhere or traded with smaller limits for a short period of time.’
Why did Tibra take his money then? They should have fired him there and then rather than paying him 40mil and then getting rid of him! Are you claiming Tibra is as stupid as you allege Bhandari is?
‘You have obviously never seen Bhandari trade or worked with him.’
Of course not,
‘If you took Bhandari out of the equation Tibra would still be exactly where it is, and there are those that would bet that Tibra would actually be better off.’
Like I said, the experiment can’t be fucking repeated, so stop talking up your fantasies, Tibra has now got rid of the ‘useless moron’, so get over it,
‘If you measure his real contribution (not what he claims he did), you would find that there was very little substance in any of his “contributions”.’
If you know anything about start-up entrepreneurship, you would know you can’t ‘really’ measure anybody’s contribution, its fucking impossible, even small decisions can have huge implications ..
‘Whether this PR effort yields dividends is questionable, although it certainly puts Tibra in the media spotlight and helps with grad recruitment.’
Okay so you do understand that this is a hypothetical discussion, good, just leave it here and move on,
‘What the grads don’t realise is that only the founders are making it big,’
Grads are always thinking of Year 1 base salary, for them 60k sterling, 70k euro is fucking brilliant, do you expect much more thought process from grads, they are what they are, grads,
‘None of the traders that joined since has ever made it onto the lists and they never will if they stay there’
Good traders always move on, mediocre bunch keep dreaming/trying/hoping but since they don’t deserve anymore than peanuts, they are happy to stay on and receive those,
‘Ben jij bang dat er een net-afgestudeerde topper binnenkomt die jou inhaalt?
Ik zie ze graag komen. Pik jij maar lekker al die netniet figuren van imc vdm of ao op.
Een op de tien grads die door de selectie komt is echt goed.
En die maken rasse schreden. Rest hakken.
Dus, studentje, als je echt goed bent moet je niet bij een bank beginnen.’
Google Translate gives this
‘Are you afraid that a just-graduated top arrive that overtakes you?
I like to come see them. You dick but good all the figures of IMC netniet VDM and ao on.
One in ten degrees by the selection is really good.
And they make great strides. Rest heels.
So, college boy, if you’re really good you should not start a bank.’
as you can read the above, its hard for me to understand what you are trying to say, could you improve google translation and let the english readers know what you are trying to say .. thanks ..
Scalping does work in tadnirg, BUT you have to be very nimble.Market makers and/or specialist don’t care about if there are scalpers in the crowd, if there is volume in a stock eveybody can make money.I have never seen a market maker pissed because a scalper or a scalper’s order was in a crowd.They only risk to being a scalper is the lack of being nimble and like all traders not disciplined.You have to be willing to take a very small profit, especially if you have to pay fees/commissions or don’t get break on either one. This is one reason day traders do not scalp,References : Industry experienced and been there done that
Vanwege een technische storing bij Citigroup is er momenteel geen handel in BEST Speeders. Citigroup werkt aan een oplossing.
Howdy! I could have sworn I’ve been to this website before but after browsing through some of the post I realized it’s new to me.
Anyhow, I’m definitely happy I found it and I’ll be
bookmarking and checking back frequently!
@ the real deal
“IBs are big swingers that dominate the market and dont care if they bleed cash since they fleece their clients for millions”
Thanks for confirming again what a bunch of burglars the banksters are.
“market makers are pathetic little scavengers that spend tens of millions on technology, then dime each other to quote the tightest spreads before crapping their pants and hacking out at the end of the day, while the IBs and other price takers get filled at the best possible prices.”
So you mean mm’ers actually do something for their money (invest in tech), take positions for tighter spreads, and trade in a transparent market. How often you see a big clip trading and then at the end of the day that exact amount of the same contract gets crossed up. Any monkey can do that shit, it should not even be allowed (and won’t be for long probably).
Add that MM’ers trade for their own account, not do it backed by pension money, my grandpa’s savings or money printed by cb’s for you cash-addicted banksters. What a joke of a “money manager” you must be if you pay nihil interest on savings but need about 9 percent more to lend something out haha. But thats a different topic.
Just the fact you call yourself the real deal on an obscure dutch trading website shows you are probably not doing deals at all. You should know you need market makers to scalp your trades on after you ripped off the client. Now go and snort some coke and try to become a big bankster by licking your seniors assss.
glad to be of help, you can calm down now