Old documentary on floor to screen migration

14 Oct 2012

Last post I mentioned a few local market makers which left the building. Calimero and Wintrading couldn’t earn a living anymore. Rising costs, higher risks and lower profits. Calimero never had a losing year by the way.

Back in the good old days of the open outcry trading the market maker landscape was completely different. Large firms disappeared after the migration to the screen, and some of the biggest traders turned tiny.

Anyway – found a nice professional documentary from Edwin Trommelen with a lot of attention to Wintrading and a Belgian trader from Saen Options (not the Calimero trader, who is in the still above for Saen). Was shown on national television some decade ago, but turns out it is still available on the internet. Not possible to embed it on this site, so you’ll just have to follow this link : afscheid van de vloer. It’s in Dutch and without subtitles – but it has a lot more to show than just a few shots from the pit.

It’s a good watch for non insiders too. It’s not only nostalgia and spotting yourself or your friends on television – it’s good television.

TOM 

Other news. TOM, the new option exchange, traded their one millionth option contract. Good news for them. Perhaps this could fuel some price war between Euronext and TOM. Although the latter is bragging about unrealistic better execution prices for retail investors. Can’t imagine the quotes on TOM are any tighter than Euronext. Something to check on another rainy day.

 

123 Responses to Old documentary on floor to screen migration

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anonymous

October 15th, 2012 at 8:19 am

Die docu Afscheid van de vloer doet het niet, klopt dat?

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anonymous

October 15th, 2012 at 9:10 am

It works over here.

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anonymous

October 15th, 2012 at 9:16 am

ok thanks, probably some corporate IT settings blocking it.
Will watch at home then.

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anonymous

October 15th, 2012 at 10:37 am

Schanulleke!!!

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anonymous

October 15th, 2012 at 5:33 pm

Nice docu.

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anonymous

October 16th, 2012 at 2:07 am

These documents Farewell floor does not, right?

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anonymous

October 16th, 2012 at 2:22 am

Schanulleke the doll Suzy from the comic series Spike and Suzy , where she was the first album ( Rikki en Wiske in Chocowakije ) occurs

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anonymous

October 17th, 2012 at 6:27 pm

Not so relevant for this topic, but yesterday i found a story
about a retail trader who turned 100.000 into 41 million by selling options.

And she did that during volatile times (financial crisis).
Not bad…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXy9HoWX0es

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anonymous

October 17th, 2012 at 8:25 pm

She started selling premium coming out of crisis, it be interesting to see if she stops doing that going into next crisis.

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anonymous

October 20th, 2012 at 4:55 pm

Would love to watch the movie with subs.

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anonymous

October 20th, 2012 at 7:07 pm

yes such old skool nostalgic.

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anonymous

October 22nd, 2012 at 7:52 pm

IMC to close Zug office in January.

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anonymous

October 22nd, 2012 at 9:16 pm

IMC is not going to close any office in January. Please stop putting non-sense comments with the only purpose to create panic and fear. We all know that the industry is having a challenging time. IMC employees in Zug know that the office is doing well considering current volumes and volatility levels and there is no reason to worry.

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anonymous

October 22nd, 2012 at 11:20 pm

Thanks JW, that’s exactly what you said about Hong Kong

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anonymous

October 23rd, 2012 at 3:39 pm

Hong Kong was not closed because of revenue issues, it simply was too much overhead given that everything could be done from the Sydney office, how many times do we have to repeat this?

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anonymous

October 23rd, 2012 at 5:00 pm

Referred to the “nobody has to worry” part (thanks for mentioning revenue issues though). What’s different with Ams vs Zug? What can’t be done from Amsterdam that’s done in Zug or vice versa?

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anonymous

October 23rd, 2012 at 5:18 pm

Amsterdam is traditionally headoffice and top- management presumably wants to stay in Amsterdam?
Zug? What about tax?

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anonymous

October 23rd, 2012 at 7:02 pm

Zug and AMS trade different strategies, you can’t run one office from another they are totally different

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anonymous

October 23rd, 2012 at 10:04 pm

I’d like a permanent copy of that video “afscheid van de vloer” for watching once I learn Dutch. Can anyone post it to YouTube and send a link, so we can download it? I can’t seem to figure out how to extract flash videos hosted on viddler.

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anonymous

October 24th, 2012 at 12:49 am

I used this program (Streaming Video Recorder trial) to download the documentary from viddler to my pc:

http://voices.yahoo.com/how-download-viddler-videos-5294751.html?cat=59

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anonymous

October 24th, 2012 at 12:37 pm

‘Ams vs Zug’

even if they trade different strategies in theory AMS could be moved to Zug, but not vice-versa. Zug has much better taxes and more competent IT and trading employees. BUT AMS has the top-management sitting there, that’s why most likely both offices will stay

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anonymous

October 24th, 2012 at 8:33 pm

why can’t Zug be moved to AMS?

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anonymous

October 25th, 2012 at 7:34 am

The strong Swiss franc is not helping, given the fact that Zug’s profits are generated mostly in Euros but its costs are in CHF!

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anonymous

October 25th, 2012 at 11:34 am

With costs you mean the salaries and the office rent, not trading fees. IMC shouldn’t be paying large base salaries and their rent won’t kill them. If they make enough money in trading, they will manage to survive the extra (euro) costs for salaries and rent.

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anonymous

October 25th, 2012 at 5:28 pm

‘If they make enough money in trading, they will manage to survive the extra (euro) costs for salaries and rent.’

Exactly, that’s why employees are quite ok

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anonymous

October 25th, 2012 at 7:00 pm

man, speak for yourself, as an employee in Zug i am not ok, bonuses decrease every year, I guess this year bonus will be even less than 100k

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anonymous

October 25th, 2012 at 10:50 pm

A bonus of less than 100k is according to the vast majority of people (the 99%) still ‘quite ok’. Stop whining and go and make some money.

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anonymous

October 25th, 2012 at 11:06 pm

‘I guess this year bonus will be even less than 100k’

this guy is drunk on his own cool-aid

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anonymous

October 25th, 2012 at 11:12 pm

Stop pretending being such a big swinging dick(head), probably had one off >100k anyways and believe it should be standard.
Better get used to it and find a flatmate coz automation is coming your Zug way and will flush your added value shortly.

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anonymous

October 25th, 2012 at 11:45 pm

‘The strong Swiss franc is not helping’

EUR=1.2CHF, unlimited bid on EUR by SNB, Good Morning to you.

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anonymous

October 26th, 2012 at 1:53 pm

‘this guy is drunk on his own cool-aid’

I read this expression already several times on this blog, can somebody please explain the meaning of this?

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anonymous

October 26th, 2012 at 8:36 pm

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anonymous

October 27th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

‘Better get used to it and find a flatmate coz automation is coming your Zug way and will flush your added value shortly.’

it is already all automated

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anonymous

October 27th, 2012 at 6:06 pm

well if its already automated, what do you do then?

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anonymous

October 27th, 2012 at 7:53 pm

control that automation works

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anonymous

October 27th, 2012 at 9:11 pm

can’t that be automated?

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anonymous

October 27th, 2012 at 10:43 pm

no

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anonymous

October 27th, 2012 at 10:56 pm

well then can you be replaced easily ?

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anonymous

October 28th, 2012 at 11:23 am

Problem with Zug is that no capable guys can fill in the upcoming gaps.

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anonymous

October 28th, 2012 at 12:58 pm

The problem with Zug is that the MD trading has no clue of the trading business

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anonymous

October 28th, 2012 at 1:12 pm

How do you mean no capable guys can fill in the upcoming gaps?

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anonymous

October 28th, 2012 at 6:06 pm

there are no upcoming gaps, traders in Zug are doing a good job, stop bad mouthing please

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anonymous

October 28th, 2012 at 7:23 pm

‘The problem with Zug is that the MD trading has no clue of the trading business’

than why did he get this position?

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anonymous

October 29th, 2012 at 2:32 am

we have been through this whole number of times – saying yes to above, being able to manage them, earning the trust, showing leadership potential etc.

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anonymous

October 29th, 2012 at 2:32 am

‘traders in Zug are doing a good job’

why can’t they be automated out?

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anonymous

October 29th, 2012 at 2:38 pm

‘why can’t they be automated out?’

man, you must have to clue of automated trading, you always need people to monitor automation, improve automation, and improve trading itself. That’s what traders do and this cannot be automated

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anonymous

October 29th, 2012 at 3:50 pm

Love it how HR chimes in now and then, like a chubby greying school teacher chastising all the naughty boys.

You, my girl, are in a pretty darned lame role right here.

Remember, it’s never too late give yourself a good old firing, leaving you free to persue that marketing career that you really wanted.

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anonymous

October 29th, 2012 at 6:03 pm

HR is also a communication role, so it is ok if they communicate to IMC employees also via this blog

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anonymous

October 29th, 2012 at 6:59 pm

also? This is the main media for HR IMC to communicate

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anonymous

October 29th, 2012 at 7:11 pm

if you would work at IMC you would know that HR is present at each employee evaluation meeting and keeps a constant and genuine communication with all employees to address their concerns. HR does not need this blog to operate.

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anonymous

October 29th, 2012 at 11:26 pm

Uit het regeerakkoord:
• De hoogte van de maximale variabele beloning binnen de financiële sector wordt wettelijk vastgelegd op 20 procent van de vaste beloning.

Ik zeg: dag Amsterdam, hallo Zug!

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anonymous

October 30th, 2012 at 1:02 am

‘you must have to clue of automated trading, you always need people to monitor automation, improve automation, and improve trading itself. That’s what traders do and this cannot be automated’

yes, i am new to this kind of automation, does timberhill do this sort of automation?

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anonymous

October 30th, 2012 at 1:03 am

The coalition agreement:
• The height of the maximum variable remuneration in the financial sector is legally set at 20 percent of the fixed salary.

I say day in Amsterdam, Zug hello!

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anonymous

October 30th, 2012 at 5:31 am

when HR thinks it contributes trader P&L, you know your firm is fucked.

tea ladies, & massage girls are another story however.

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fred winia

October 30th, 2012 at 10:35 am

erg leuk om die documantaire weer eens te zien. ik wilde helemaal niet maar rien had toegestemd en toen moest ik wel. achteraf wel blij mee trouwens.

ik wenst jullie allemaal veel geluk en winst.

succes

fred

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anonymous

October 30th, 2012 at 12:56 pm

‘HR is present at each employee evaluation meeting and keeps a constant and genuine communication’

that’s not true

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anonymous

October 30th, 2012 at 1:27 pm

Is this 20% bonus cap Industry-wide or government-backed banks only?

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anonymous

October 30th, 2012 at 2:36 pm

It is to apply to the entire Dutch financial sector, not just the handful of government supported banks.

As well they should. Bonuses should only be awarded to the managers and computers, they make the money, although the 20% would also apply to the managers. But you get my point. The traders are vastly overpaid and spoilt. About time the government steps in and restores some sanity.

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anonymous

October 30th, 2012 at 4:58 pm

What makes the managers to do deserve as much vs traders?

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anonymous

October 30th, 2012 at 5:52 pm

traders do not make money because if their skills in our days, they are taught the models, the trading strategies and how to use a trading system system. In few words, their contribution to P&L is zero in the majority of cases, even if they think they generate all P&L. There are very rare cases in which a trader comes up with a new (and profitable) strategy by him/herself, in these cases a bib bonus is more than deserved

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anonymous

October 30th, 2012 at 6:05 pm

‘There are very rare cases in which a trader comes up with a new (and profitable) strategy by him/herself, in these cases a bib bonus is more than deserved’

Maybe true for conventional cash cow trading spots. SPX/SX5E/Kospi

People who have started new businesses within existing architecture have been more than amptly rewarded at Optiver/IMC. That is why they are 600 people company today.

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anonymous

October 31st, 2012 at 12:07 am

Hello transaction tax!

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anonymous

October 31st, 2012 at 12:19 am

very nice to see that documentary again. I did not want but rien had consented, and when I had to. afterwards happy indeed.

I wish you all good luck and profit.

success

fred

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anonymous

October 31st, 2012 at 12:20 am

‘Is this 20% bonus cap Industry-wide or government-backed banks only?’

i guess, junior employee would start getting shares etc much faster in private companies for dividend compensation? If there is any compensation power still outstanding that is.

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anonymous

October 31st, 2012 at 12:22 am

‘What makes the managers to do deserve as much vs traders?’

Previous commentator saying ‘manager/computers deserve bonus’ is being sarcastic?

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anonymous

October 31st, 2012 at 12:25 am

‘their contribution to P&L is zero in the majority of cases’

not correctly worded, a trader’s performance can only be judged with excellent trader and target trader trading the same spot simultaneously for reasonable amount of time. Hard exercise to do and difficult to repeat for reliable results using law of large number.

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anonymous

October 31st, 2012 at 12:26 am

‘There are very rare cases in which a trader comes up with a new (and profitable) strategy by him/herself’

there is no bloody strategy for normal trader, its either long/short/flat.

Quant Trader is different case.

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anonymous

October 31st, 2012 at 12:34 am

‘Maybe true for conventional cash cow trading spots. SPX/SX5E/Kospi’

Definitely not true, the best trader is posted to trade SPX/SX5E/KOSPI.

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anonymous

October 31st, 2012 at 12:36 am

‘People who have started new businesses within existing architecture’

stat arb, latency arb, dispersion, special sit etc.

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anonymous

October 31st, 2012 at 8:48 am

Either way, start packing your shit, you guys are moving

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anonymous

October 31st, 2012 at 12:08 pm

When I was at IMC HR did not sit in on reviews. Only the manager did.
I think they might sit in on poor performance discussions. Also, I very much doubt this blog is posted on by any of IMC’s management especially not HR. In fact, I heard that they prohibited employees from posting on these blogs in their employee handbook.

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anonymous

October 31st, 2012 at 12:10 pm

Anybody know the latest on the Tibra v Optiver case?

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anonymous

October 31st, 2012 at 12:14 pm

‘In fact, I heard that they prohibited employees from posting on these blogs in their employee handbook.’

No, there is not prohibition and I doubt that you ever worked for IMC HR

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anonymous

October 31st, 2012 at 12:22 pm

I never said I worked for HR – I said “when I was at IMC HR…” – but that was a couple years ago.

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anonymous

October 31st, 2012 at 12:40 pm

why did you leave IMC?

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anonymous

October 31st, 2012 at 1:41 pm

it was simply a horrible work environment

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anonymous

November 1st, 2012 at 10:15 am

+1

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AlgoFX

November 1st, 2012 at 5:33 pm

Check out “Floored”, a similar documentary on the demise of open outcry trading on the floor of CME: if you liked the Dutch one, you’re going to love the American version: http://flooredthemovie.com//

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anonymous

November 2nd, 2012 at 12:37 am

‘In fact, I heard that they prohibited employees from posting on these blogs in their employee handbook’

you can do that from your phone or home laptop or have exceptions?

you wouldn’t believe how responsive IMC HR has been to comments posted on this blog. I am serious, IMC employees should use this as direct 360 feedback.

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anonymous

November 2nd, 2012 at 12:38 am

‘it was simply a horrible work environment’

where are you these days, doing what?

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anonymous

November 2nd, 2012 at 8:02 am

“you wouldn’t believe how responsive IMC HR has been to comments posted on this blog.”

In that case: IMC would be a so much better work environment if the chair massages had a happy ending.

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anonymous

November 2nd, 2012 at 2:02 pm

I do not think IMC HR is reacting on this blog, they read it for sure but it is not evident that they react on it. Only one exception: they removed the night shift trader job posting after it has been heavily criticized on this blog.

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anonymous

November 3rd, 2012 at 2:23 pm

‘IMC would be a so much better work environment if the chair massages had a happy ending’

stop being a cheapstake, you are already mooching off the company for food and massages, go buy your own fuck, doesn’t cost much, cheap dutchchies.

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anonymous

November 3rd, 2012 at 2:24 pm

‘I do not think IMC HR is reacting on this blog’

what did you expect them to do, give you big bonus?

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anonymous

November 7th, 2012 at 2:58 pm

Fred winia, is a nice guy. Sad to see trading turn into gizmo computer freak show.

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anonymous

November 8th, 2012 at 12:36 am

what’s sad about gizmo computer, it’s like saying i’m not going to watch imax because i am nostalgic on real theatre, you can do both if you want, no one is stopping you.

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anonymous

November 8th, 2012 at 10:27 pm

so imc is closing down at least some of the zug office? or at least that is how ‘moving back to amsterdam’ should be interpreted?

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anonymous

November 9th, 2012 at 12:02 am

if zug is meant for tax activities, non-tax activities could be moved back to centre of power in amsterdam?

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anonymous

November 9th, 2012 at 9:55 am

Rubish. They Announced to reduce / move 55 of their 101 Jobs to Amsterdam or Eliminate them. Make the math, you do Not require 50 remaining to Run sa. That meins another 20-30 will go in the following 12 months or if they Continue to Not make Profit it will be closed Down completly. Simple truth

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anonymous

November 9th, 2012 at 10:12 am

Zug office will be 10 traders and 10 HR staff. lol.

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anonymous

November 9th, 2012 at 3:40 pm

best traders promoted to IMC HR roles.

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anonymous

November 9th, 2012 at 4:34 pm

worst trader will become MD Zug replacing J? good idea

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anonymous

November 10th, 2012 at 4:55 am

Zug office will be 10 traders inside 10 HR staff. lol.

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anonymous

November 10th, 2012 at 4:56 am

‘best traders promoted to IMC HR roles’

no call it ‘trader burn out’

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anonymous

November 10th, 2012 at 11:22 pm

get your facts straight, there isn’t any reduction of positions at IMC Zug

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anonymous

November 11th, 2012 at 11:47 am

lol, can somebody in zug confirm this, has anybody been shown the door or not?

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anonymous

November 11th, 2012 at 11:54 am

I can confirm that nobody has been shown the door, the above rumors are pure fantasy

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anonymous

November 11th, 2012 at 5:20 pm

are you from HR?

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anonymous

November 11th, 2012 at 11:17 pm

So what are the trader salaries at IMC nowadays?

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anonymous

November 12th, 2012 at 7:15 am

who cares about salaries, wasn’t it about bonus, can you even put a finger to it?

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anonymous

November 12th, 2012 at 11:58 am

‘So what are the trader salaries at IMC nowadays?’

above market average

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anonymous

November 12th, 2012 at 10:52 pm

who all are included in this ‘market’?

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anonymous

November 13th, 2012 at 12:10 am

all prop trading companies are the market

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anonymous

November 14th, 2012 at 2:11 pm

Most people in Zug office who would be fired are not going to be Traders earning shit loads but support staff i.e. IT.
Expected date of announcement is about 20th Nov

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anonymous

November 14th, 2012 at 2:19 pm

‘Expected date of announcement is about 20th Nov’

stop creating panic, nobody will be fired from IMC Zug. These rumors are going on since months and nobody has been fired.

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anonymous

November 15th, 2012 at 12:41 am

‘all prop trading companies are the market’

who all are included in this ‘all prop trading companies’?

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anonymous

November 15th, 2012 at 12:42 am

‘These rumors are going on since months’

so you saying all smoke and no fire?

Hard to believe?

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anonymous

November 15th, 2012 at 3:25 pm

‘They Announced to reduce / move 55 of their 101 Jobs to Amsterdam ‘

why does IMC move people to Amsterdam, is this really saving costs or is it an excuse to fire later?

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anonymous

November 15th, 2012 at 4:42 pm

The main reason is not to save costs but taxes. Holland has a higher tax than Switzerland, if the Zug office is generating only costs because trading PL is low it makes sense to move these costs to Amsterdam. In this way less taxes are payed since the overall profit in Amsterdam is reduced by the additional costs of the Zug it is better to move it from Amsterdam to Zug, and take advantage of lower taxes. That’s what probably IMC did in the past. By saving taxes IMC will probably be able to keep more people.

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anonymous

November 15th, 2012 at 8:41 pm

that’s the problem with IMC: they hire too many people, replace the seniors who invented something with juniors who just operate a system (IMC traders). Top managements really believes that the value is in computer programs… Now we see the results, Zug used to be the most profitable office few years ago, all those who made the office so profitable left in the meantime and a bunch of junior PhDs waste their time by running a system they did not develop.

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anonymous

November 16th, 2012 at 2:32 am

‘why does IMC move people to Amsterdam, is this really saving costs or is it an excuse to fire later?’

just wait and watch, you’ll soon what actually happens, no need to speculate needlessly, needless to say, this blog would have all the details ; )

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anonymous

November 16th, 2012 at 2:33 am

‘In this way less taxes are payed since the overall profit in Amsterdam is reduced by the additional costs of the Zug it is better to move it from Amsterdam to Zug, and take advantage of lower taxes. ‘

Nice Global Tax Arbitrage!

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anonymous

November 16th, 2012 at 2:37 am

‘Top managements really believes that the value is in computer programs’

Top Management is right, why waste money on overpaid lazy old stupid traders when the computer can do the same trick.

‘all those who made the office so profitable left in the meantime’

why did they leave?

‘Zug used to be the most profitable office few years ago’

lot of places used to be very profitable few years ago, lot of them have gone bankrupt since, in case you haven’t noticed the business environment, good morning.

‘a bunch of junior PhDs waste their time by running a system they did not develop’

what’s wrong with junior phds running it? what else you want them to do? where else are they going to make 100k+?

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anonymous

November 16th, 2012 at 12:56 pm

‘what’s wrong with junior phds running it?’
you do not need young phds to run it, just take former call center staff for 40+, they’ll perform the same

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anonymous

November 16th, 2012 at 1:00 pm

any comments on transaction tax that could impact the move to low tax places again

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anonymous

November 16th, 2012 at 4:43 pm

there will be no impact on low tax places as a transaction tax would kill the whole business

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anonymous

November 17th, 2012 at 6:01 am

‘you do not need young phds to run it, just take former call center staff for 40+’

do you think the young phds can extract more of the trading system/markets by enhancements than what they are being paid over 40k?

‘they’ll perform the same’

what makes you so sure?

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anonymous

November 17th, 2012 at 6:02 am

‘there will be no impact on low tax places as a transaction tax would kill the whole business’

it’s about time anyways, the industry is dead anyways, 2010 was the dead cat bounce

http://hereisthecity.com/2012/11/13/city-bonuses-join-the-real-world-down-from-33000-a-head-to-6400/

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anonymous

November 17th, 2012 at 12:46 pm

‘do you think the young phds can extract more of the trading system/markets by enhancements than what they are being paid over 40k?’

no, this is confirmed by the facts. A team of HR girls ready to learn how to operate a trading system would have made the same P&L

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anonymous

November 17th, 2012 at 5:34 pm

then why is the management still hiring the phds? maybe it gives them emotional satisfaction of having talented people around who can give smart ideas and contribute to the research?

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anonymous

November 17th, 2012 at 8:46 pm

yes

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anonymous

November 18th, 2012 at 11:40 am

if you know anything about trading, you would know the positions and trading have to match with your emotional set-up, case closed, phds in.

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Trading pit history - amsterdamtrader

November 27th, 2012 at 10:32 pm

[…] guess you may remember the interesting documentary about close of the open outcry trading in Amsterdam, zooming in on a few traders. Unfortunately […]

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