Tibra leaves Swiss Exchange
183 comments / October 28, 2013
Mentioned over the weekend already in the comments. Last friday the news was shared by SIX Swiss Exchange the membership of Tibra Trading Europe will end on October 31th 2013 (pdf) . This means they’re leaving the market making in Swiss equity options.
The firm is closing down desks one by one. Rumor has it all US desks will close, only one or two people will stay to keep a legal entity. European market making in single stocks has been terminated altogether.
High speed trading meets low speed courts
As this Australian magazine notes in the conflict with Optiver, High speed trading meets low-speed courts. Not impossible Tibra will fold before the court reaches a final decision.
first,
european single stock options have been closed by tibra? even dutch and german ones?
and what’s with danny setting up online cricket, what a wanna-be, look at real punter called Allard, shows danny never had trading in his blood, nobody would miss him
Probably their book was to the market I guess? Word is they will close their entire Amsterdam office from where the single stock options book was run, so that would mean also Dutch and German ones.
Thought their Dutch office was given notice last week? N
Dutch office shut down for tibra? Did the staff go to London office? How many staff do tibra have in Europe? And when will the 2nd Australian office get shut down?
Tim would shut down the company before shutting down the Wollongong office, despite it costing $30,000/month for data communication between there and Sydney. Also, Tibra rents the premises off Tim’s wife.
So it costs tibra 30k per month for a 2nd Australian office that makes no money? And it is owned by the wife of a director? what do other tibra shareholders think of it?
Does the 30k monthly cost include rent?
what does this mean, can you rephrase pls – ‘Probably their book was to the market I guess?’
what’s happening to their strategy of hiring senior traders with 5 years relevant experience, not so big balls is it?
They have a strategy?
Rephrase
They close down their Amsterdam office overnight. They either transfer the book to London or offer it to other parties to take over.
They could offer it, given they make no money in single stocks.
But then again, who is? So they might (have to) manage it till all positions are expired.
http://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Tibra-Reviews-E197452.htm?sort.sortType=RD&sort.ascending=false
Tibra’s options desk was a disaster ever since Miti came back to run it. A rubbish manager and even worse Trader.
Miti?
amsterdam office was shut down because it was discovered over half the office were virgins
Then IMC will close shop in amsterdam soon too
I thought most were fcuked in their arse by management in the last bonus round?
Tibra had no bonuses last round me thinks. Are Hugo and Alco still at tibra in Europe?
Alco is not working there according to his linkedin.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/alco-pieren/0/412/260
is getting fucked in the arse by management = loosing your virginity?
Does tibra management still refuse to announce when people leave, hoping to maintain the “positive vibe” at the office?
The ‘second’ Australian office is in Bondi. Viva la gong!
it seems that tibra and http://www.sourcecap.ch have a lot in common, eg the glassdoor review
So what with renting from Tim’s wife. The famous Tibra massage service is provided by Tim’s sister!
What’s wrong with having short term profit motive, if you don’t have long term stock option incentives, why would you create long term shareholder value?
The Dutch office was pretty much just an office to keep alco and hugo onboard. Those guys have probably moved on to their on things, so guess Amsterdam office notice not a surprise.
Didnt they get some good GETCO guys to run their equities book in London.
“Tibra Capital has appointed two former executives at Getco Europe, with one described as a “game-changing” hire for the Australian high-frequency trading firm looking to improve its fortunes in Europe.”
LoL
They got decent enough technology and know how of the Asian Market to stick around.
Their EU office however took a back step when the man who formed the office – Ian Toon decided to walk.
I hear some small bonuses get paid at tibra tomorrow (after being delayed), how many people will quit in the days after?
Are we still keeping a count at the revolving door, don’t you have something better to do with your life?
‘Their EU office however took a back step when the man who formed the office – Ian Toon decided to walk.’
you mix cause with effect, Ian left because things were already bad…
don’t hold it personally, there are lot of big financial markets ego mixing causation with correlation etc
How’s Denis the Euro RGM getting on? Even he must have stopped believing his own b#llsh*t by now.
What is euro rgm?
I think euro rgm is a new arb desk they have set up run by a guy called Dennis. Apparently this is the one that will save the company.
Was Dennis laid off too?
Denis is the Regional General Manager. Well was I think
What was wrong with old arb desk that he had to set up a new one for ?
deniss did not set up an arb desk. he came to tibra from citi a couple of years after they got bailed out. started managing the teams like business units with all their performance metrics. leadership skills honed in pimlico neighbourhood watch
The mistake they made was not making Norwood global head of everything.
@5:31 TEXAS!!!
Norwood and Tim are probably the only guys who are still keen on running the firm.
Dennis sounds like typical management at big investment bank, stupid metrics without understanding how the money is being made, and of course jumpin ship at sign of trouble rather than take some ownership of the shrinking ship, what a ‘model captain’
That’s sinking ship
Tibra management was always about finding “metrics” that ensured that traders/IT who made money weren’t rewarded as expected while the owners and their sycophants got their “1000 prefs” irregardless of performance.
Of course this pissed everyone off and started the famous revolving door.
If the shareholders had been less greedy and short termist then they couldve built a great company and would’ve been better off today.
Wasn’t it 40% of trading pnl going to traders bonus pool?
is bhandari still a shareholder?
It Getco now suing tibra too?
what for? poaching getco’s senior 5 year trading talent, is it
is Getco struggling as well?
define struggling
whats wim den hartog doing now….
mr leisure taking a year off, either he gets back to some meaningless management position on back of his gs md or he ends up opening a bakery or some wineshop, who cares
Tibra’s rise in the business is no less than spectacular. They built a global company faster than everyone in the business. Most shops have not moved beyond their continent of formation in the past 10 years.
‘define spectacular’ guy can take a hike
sorry, what’s your point?
define ‘spectacular’
define “your mom”
sorry, did somebody actually ask the definition of ‘spectacular’ before, i don’t see any such sarcastic comment above?
define “define”!
yah
They just put over a dozen people in Bondi at notice of redundancy. Market making is moving to Austie. Shouldn’t be long before the office in Bondi closes, if not the company. Berry is a total idiot.
Berry’s only contribution to the morale at Tibra is to have worn leather trousers and a silk shirt to the birthday party. Along with the mullet it was truly a look to behold.
who is berry?
back barry
define ‘berry’
yah
What’s your market in the Tibra shut down date? Q4 2014 @ Q3 2015? Anyone want to go tighter?
Q2
Rumours of more than Bandari of the principals looking to get out of share holdings entirely. Berry still expects to sell the company for a billion! @ q2 2015. Enjoy your pay cheques while they last tibra workers…..
A billion rupee?
A billion Dong?
can you rephrase ‘Rumours of more than Bandari of the principals’?
also who is berry and why is he so optimistic about sale value of the company, dozens of high frequency shops have closed shop without a white knight to rescue
hit Q4/2014, my size is your size.
my size is 3inches, you got small dick syndrome too?
that’s why he’s looking for someone to “go tighter”
you are bordering on g@y, mate
Define
How fcuking dare anyone out there make fun of Berry after all he has been through.!
HE’S A HUMAN! What you don’t realize is that Berry is making you all this money and all you do is write a bunch of crap about him.
He hasn’t performed on stage in years. His song is called “give me more” for a reason because all you people want is MORE! MORE-MORE, MORE: MORE!.
LEAVE HIM ALONE! You are lucky he even performed for you BASTARDS!
LEAVE BERRY ALONE!…..Please.
Perez Hilton talked about professionalism and said if Berry was a professional he would’ve pulled it off no matter what.
Speaking of professionalism, when is it professional to publicly bash someone who is going through a hard time.
Leave Berry Alone Please…. !
Leave Berry Spears alone!…right now!….I mean it.!
Anyone that has a problem with him you deal with me, because he is not well right now.
LEAVE HIM ALONE!
Hahaha!
ElderBerry
Berry Berry funny!
define Berry Spears!
Berrilicious!
Tibra will not go down at all, the fact that they make all these redundancies is going to bring profitability to a higher level. They have 100mln in (cash) equity and that nr is growing (cause unlike what the comments on this blog imply, the company is not loss making)
Hahaha Tibra is definitely loss making. There’s no-one left to make money any more, and they still have all the expenses of running their offices. Why do you think they keep pulling out of exchanges? No-one likes to pull out – you only do it if you don’t have another option. Tibra will definitely go down. In fact, Tibra culture centres on going down, if you know what I mean. Tim’s announcement of the redundancies last Friday may be summarised as, “This is to improve the quality of cock sucking I receive, by focusing them on a few best cock suckers.” If you believe Tibra has a future, you must be sucking Tim’s cock so hard you’ve lost sight of reality. That includes you, Tim – if you got your own cock out of your mouth you might have a chance to partially redeem yourself, but I think you’ve got it jammed in too hard to do anything about it any more.
you are missing the point about great traders they have hired with more than 5 years relevant trading experience who is powering them to mios and bios
why are you refering to best traders with such profanity? jealous that they didn’t fired like you?
who is tim?
how much cash on tibra’s balance sheet, what’s the liquidation value?
@ 9:27am
Just a tad aggressive champ.
You mention sucking cock four times and jamming it once. Perhaps you should hit up the tool shed or arq to relieve some of your sexual tension.
@11:07 you’re talking like you know what’s going on at Tibra, but you need to ask who Tim is? You really think anyone will take you seriously?
@11:34 don’t you think it’s a bit funny that Tibra is such a short distance from the Toolshed? Just a quick trip down Oxford St and you’ll be there.
@ 11:40 EADC
define “EADC”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=937rMCQdFZw
2 mins 58s defines it perfectly for you
Good to see Tibra can still afford to pay their PR department to troll the comments here.
Shit, I can’t believe I missed all this Tibra fun
I used to work at Tibra and I went to the Toolshed all the time.
Define “Toolshed”
A bar with a very poor female:male ratio.
SMD!!! todaloo muthafuka!!!
Certain individuals have been stockpiling toilet faucets in anticipation of a spike in market demand
@11:40 don’t take me seriously of course
this conversation is real grown-up, time for arq now
I’m asking Jack to remove your nonsense
what’s nonsensical about discussing why h0mophobic words have been censored particularly and not the regular curse words?
Haha that’s a coincidence. I used to work at the Toolshed and I went to Tibra all the time!!!
is that what Thursday massage and hand job was all about?
Some of these comments are starting to get out of hand. I think we need to bring JT’s mum in as moderator.
who is JT?
JT Marlin?
JT’s the former Tibra developer who brought his mum to court with him when he got publicly humiliated.
How did he get humiliated?
Judge basically told him to go fuck himself and stop wasting court time with bullshit.
Cost cutting does not necessarily imply shutting down. No doubt that rockstars like clint maddock and alco dont work there anymore. But the co has enough cash to stick around if there are fewer dead bodies.
how about the humiliation from having to bring mom rather than an attorney for a legal case?
What’s the difference between mom and attorney if former knowledgeable enough to make the case?
His mum isn’t a legal professional so he could only take her as a “McKenzie friend”. According to Australian corporations law he was not eligible to represent himself for his case against Tibra – he required professional legal representation. Hence the judge threw his case out.
hey JT, so you really think your mum is knowledgeable enough to make the case, is she an attorney by profession, current or former
What is a McKenzie friend
why could not JT hire legal professional, what was the expected cost/benefit analysis on legal help?
“What is a McKenzie friend”
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=McKenzie+friend
Burnnnn!
you are a genius, so funny
How is Source Capital doing in these days? Heard some bad rumors, that they are going bust
no they are not, it’s just the case of bad-leavers bad-mouthing
How do you know it is bad-leavers bad-mouthing?
It could be also bad-employees bad-mouthing. Or it could be that it is not bad-mouthing, but simply true due to bad-management causing the company to go bust…
Any hint on where the true lies?
How are you so sure it is not bad leavers bad mouthing. It could have been their bad mouths that got them fired in the first place. The truth is intangible.
who knows, who cares, we’ll soon find out in any case
Source Capital fired dozens of traders, quants, developers this year, so it is likely that at least few of them are bad mouthing now. Maybe it is the same who were fired because they were bad-mouthing, but this is intangible indeed. What we can infer is that the reasons of for negative comments about source capital is bad mouthing
nobody is bad-mouthing no-one, truth is not always crystal clear when so much facts are hidden behind smokes and mirror, what ends up happening is a lot of needless speculation
“Source Capital fired dozens of traders, quants, developers this year, so it is likely that at least few of them are bad mouthing now”
if all this people left it is clear that Source Capital is in financial trouble, it does not matter if they were fired or not, or if they are bad-mouthing or not. Let the facts speak…
“if all this people left it is clear that Source Capital is in financial trouble”
or management at Source Capital is just butt stupid
or the management is butt smart to recognize that there isn’t much liquidity alpha left in the market with other super competitors, low volumes and low volatility?
obviously they could branch in other financial services like getco, but they have chosen to sticking to their core competence?
the commentator at 7:54 was probably referring to two possible situations: either Source Capital is in financial trouble or management is b*** stupid, no other explanation is possible
Substitute Source Capital with Tibra and the picture is going to be more or less the same.
Really? It would be hard to equal the level of self-delusion that Tibra’s management have achieved.
Define “Self Delusion”
so either source is in financial trouble or management is stupid? why not the possibility of management being smart enough to recognize the changing situation and down-sizing the business accordingly?
“… recognize the changing situation and down-sizing the business accordingly?”
this is very close to saying that they are in financial trouble, if this would not be the case there would be no need to fire 50% of staff.
If you add that bonuses have been miserable last year, it is quite obvious, no? Or do you need to wait for the bonuses of this year to realize it? Then write back in 2 months.
no you muppet, downsizing to the business environment doesn’t mean financial trouble, it means management has to meet it’s ROI, and in bad environment there aren’t much returns to be had, there is no choice but to decrease your equity base; and remember this is number one rule in trading business, always, pls note, always survive to fight on a better day; sticking with incorrect strategy and sinking the ship is, well, a completely stupid strategy, la lehman style
as for 50% staff reduction, how man times this has to be repeated, in any desk in any part of financial market, 50% of staff can be got rid of in 6 months flat, no problem at all, this is regularly the case in any of top places in times of change, open your eyes and ears and you’ll see hidden graveyards everywhere with show going on fine on the front porch, nobody misses the departed
and if your yardstick is bonus, well then you have completely lost the plot of what’s going in financial markets
btw, the above doesn’t mean that the firm’s investor might decide to completely hack out the business if the ROI is still not acceptable
and let me add something to the above, this is a competitive business and managers have the duty to remove bad apples, especially in a difficult business environment, there is no place for bad performers at top companies like source.
Strategies which worked years ago are not necessary working today, markets changed and investors will not tolerate losing strategies. Traders having the privilege to work here can get the best infrastructure and the best support available in the market today to realize their full potential, but management expects these traders to generate alpha because that’s for what they are paid salaries and bonuses far above the average in the industry.
How many times do we have to repeat this?
If they are not able to generate alpha the exit door is always open for them. Instead of bad mouthing this low performing individuals should revise their set of skills and chose a new area.
Btw, the same holds for developers and remaining support staff. Losers are not forced to stay here, on the contrary, they are encouraged to leave and will not be missed.
The firm’s investors will continue to support this great company and the management because relative to the peers, the company is doing extremely well and is well positioned for the future.
No muppeting. I’ll ask Jack to remove that comment
no you genius, downsizing to the business environment doesn’t mean financial trouble, it means management has to meet it’s ROI, and in bad environment there aren’t much returns to be had, there is no choice but to decrease your equity base; and remember this is number one rule in trading business, always, pls note, always survive to fight on a better day; sticking with incorrect strategy and sinking the ship is, well, a completely stupid strategy, la lehman style
as for 50% staff reduction, how man times this has to be repeated, in any desk in any part of financial market, 50% of staff can be got rid of in 6 months flat, no problem at all, this is regularly the case in any of top places in times of change, open your eyes and ears and you’ll see hidden graveyards everywhere with show going on fine on the front porch, nobody misses the departed
and if your yardstick is bonus, well then you have completely lost the plot of what’s going in financial markets
btw, the above doesn’t mean that the firm’s investor might decide to completely hack out the business if the ROI is still not acceptable
Please mind your commas. It’s “no, you genius, downsizing”
when you say the company is doing extremely well relative to the peers and is well positioned for the future, can you stop with your meaningless management talk and come out with some actual factual evidence and numbers to support your claim
all this censorship, you live in china right?
It’s pretty sad to see Tibra is sinking down.
From my experiences from IB and other prop trading firms, Tibra has got the best developers and very talented traders but their P&L has not been improving against its competitors.
Why is that? I’d think the culture and the environment was not stimulating the potential of the employees and the management leadership was not good enough.
@11:20 pm & 2:13 am
ok mate, calm down, Source Capital is a top company and is not in financial trouble. Take it easy, everything is fine, Source Capital is the best among the peers and has the fastest lines. Since you write about it, can you answer these questions:
what is the ROI?
how do you know investors will still support the company even if the ROI is not acceptable?
who are the peers?
how many people correspond to 50% staff reduction at Source Capital?
is it really good to fire so many people and all the traders who perhaps just had a draw-down which will be recovered soon? Employees might not like such an unstable working environment?
Thanks and have a nice day
Last time I heard, Tibra was making ~5-10mm on its most profitable desk. Other desks are in the process of moving to other shops or being sacked.
All talented traders and devs left Tibra 1-2 years ago. They’ve been just surfing down the wave and now the wave is gone.
who cares about tibra, next
Just wondering, anyone looking to make a market on how quickly TOM will fall apart if Nasdaq-OMX buys Euronext?
it’s frustrating when you don’t have a TOM-connection, aight?!
what’s your bid-offer?
Do you know if banks that are not in holland have access to TOM like SG or BNP ? heard that it is a quite complicated regarding back office and clearing house…
How’s about 8:2
in 2009 optiver was the least profitable company in the business because of their decision to invest in the long term.
In 2012-2013 it has been the most profitable and globally diversified company in the business. amazing vision. They have actually grown in head count.
i am 3 bid
tom is too small time for foreign banks to worry about at the moment, there are other bigger fish to fry
optiver is a very well run firm, la goldman sachs of the mm world
Optiver doesn’t pay much to non traders, especially in their Amsterdam office. Salary of 70k eur is a joke.
you are welcome to join imc and all options
@4:58 You must have seen a different movie – your explanation for Opitver’s 2009 results has very little to do with what happened.
so what do you think happened?
How’s about overgrowth and a correction that came too late to save the year? If you look at their headcount figures, they mushroomed in the period leading into 2009 and seem to have stabilized now.
I’m guessing that the quality and focus of their trading does the trick. that together with a willingness to move into new markets before others do. In that sense you have to give them credit – they’re pretty agile for a (relatively) big company.
@11:14 am
what is the ROI?
it is negative, investors cannot just move the money to Tibra or IMC, so they will keep it at source and downsize if and only if they start to lose money
how do you know investors will still support the company even if the ROI is not acceptable?
Most likely because investors=management, and as said before they have not much choice
who are the peers?
the usual names, IMC, Optiver, and so on
how many people correspond to 50% staff reduction at Source Capital?
no clue
is it really good to fire so many people and all the traders who perhaps just had a draw-down which will be recovered soon? Employees might not like such an unstable working environment?
It is not good, that’s why many are leaving
you haven’t given any insider info, why are you wasting everyone’s time with obvious answers?
@9.27pm
Optiver has a very well known reputation as a financial high school.
The turn over of non traders/partners is quite high there. They hire without prior financial experience. So people learn, get experience and leave for better pay.
The company doesn’t value non trading/partners personal whatsoever.
so, they leave for better pay, what’s the problem then?
Anybody who was talking about tibra’s collapse wants to comment on their trading profit in the year July 2014-jun 2015 (120 mln) or the year there after that probably was just as good (or better))?
Seems that Tim berry showed great vision in 2013 (when most of the above comments where posted) as Tibra makes all this money with less than 100 people employed. (Total staff, not traders)
Too bad I don’t work there myself, but not big enough to congratulate the tibra team on their performance
Yeah I have to agree, after so many down years, Tibra has turned things around and is again one of the big boys in town.
Profits are on the up and up, the results of their massive recruitment drive for only the best of the best talent in all the major centre’s has really begun to pay off.
The old days of lingering in Optiver, Maven or even Virtu’s shadow have long since passed.
Tibra is definitely where it’s all at!
You don’t sound like a recruiter at all, this seems totally legit.
Where can I apply?
do you sell real estate in your spare time?
How are imc, Optiver, virtu, maven etc doing the last months?
@9:11 I’d rather see Tibra compared to new players on the street like Jump Trading or even Autumn Compass
Jump
Optiver
IMC
Virtu
Tower
Flow
Tibra
Timber Snail
All Floptions
@8:33 What is that list suppose to be? Tiers?
I’m interested to see how Autumn Compass is fairing. Anyone got any idea?
autumn compass just got 3 new bluetooth mouse delivered last week. Heard they are getting some flat screens next week
@8:33 am Does that mean Optiver makes more money than the Virtu juggernaut? If so I find that very hard to believe.
@ 3:01 PM
Virtu made a profit just shy of USD 200 million in 2015. They’re a listed company you know?
Meanwhile Optiver reported a profit of EUR 395 million in 2015.
http://www.amsterdamtrader.com/2016/06/optiver-earnings-amaze.html
So yeah Optiver makes a lot more than the Virtu juggernaut.
i have heard the shipment of 3 flat screens to Autumn Compass has been delayed. more news to follow. Also they could be getting some funky new keyboards and a bloomberg subscription soon
@4:05am and @6:29am
Why is there so much ridicule and hostility towards to Autumn Compass?
I can’t help but wonder if most of it is coming from Optiver people that weren’t invited to join the team at AC and participate in the massive profits that are most assuredly coming.
@4:12
The profit numbers aren’t even the most interesting bit (as they are both post employee compensation). Trading revenues are significantly higher than profits, with Optiver still leading by almost a factor two.
Of course, Optiver has a massively higher headcount than Virtu; their revenue per employee was lower. And that tiered list definitely isn’t revenue / profit sorted anyway.
@7:41 Shouldn’t the numbers really be assessed based on a risk adjusted profit?
There could be a scenario that Virtu made its lesser amount of 200MM with a near zero risk of massive draw downs, where as Optiver may have made its 395MM with a high probability of coming out with a loss for the year.
At the end of the day most people would rather 200MM with zero risk over an extra 195MM with massive risk and draw downs.
@ 12.48 pm.
Are you aware of Optiver’s business? They don’t have (m)any down days in a year, so risk-weighted returns are massive. You can independently verify this by looking at Optiver’s results over the last 20 years, not a single down year.
Pretty likely that Virtu has more down days, given the fact they are more capital intense than Optiver (have more capital/employee)
Best,
didn’t virtu have only one losing day in 4 years just before the ipo?
respect to virtu, respect to optiver. they are different firms operating in different ways both with amazing results
Why doesn’t this place have a forum yet?
it seems the spruikers are out again (when not selling real estate)
weren’t invited to join the team at AC and participate in the massive profits that are most assuredly coming. – yeah, i was looking to leave the most successful MM operation getting a million a year as a moderate senior trader to go to a startup with no guarantee of anything
where can i find you on twitter @believeanything ?
enjoy your 3 month stint in HR
Massive profits are assuredly coming ?
Give d trump a call – he’ would appreciate your b s skills
@11:45 am It’s not about down days or how many down days there were between Virtu and Optiver, but rather it’s about returns based on risk. If you give two traders $X each at the start of the day, and at the end of the day they both return with $X.X (aka 10% return), how can one tell which trader was the better of the two? – were they truly equal to each other solely based on their returns? or is there more to it?
One can only do that if each trader’s strategy was known, only then can you determine the maximum potential draw down of each strategy. (Sharpe ratio)
One trader may have used a strategy which would only have resulted in a max loss of %5, returning at worse $0.95X, whereas the other trader may have had a 20% draw-down returning $0.8X, in this situation even though both produced a similar positive return, the trader using the %5 max loss strategy would be considered the better and more astute trader of the two.
And no one does not require a blue-tooth mouse to make money, though plenty of opportunities to play table-tennis does help.
@9:32
Could you please not brag about your salary, and be a bit more humble please. Thank you.
Your Optiver colleagues
I’m not from Optiver, I’m at IMC. I made a valid point about the Autumn Compass propaganda
Nice of you to speak for all of Optiver