10 Apr

Firing spree at IMC Amsterdam

SuperdoeiNot afraid to admit it, I have read it first in the comments here. It has been confirmed : IMC has sacked 23 employees last Wednesday (April 9th).

Some traders, some IT staff. That’s around 10% of the headcount in Amsterdam being shown the door. Add up the folks who left after pocketing their bonus two weeks ago. There must be a lot of empty desks in the office.

And is it me, or does IMC have a new website?

183 thoughts on “Firing spree at IMC Amsterdam

  1. i think imc website has been there for few weeks atleast?

    also, it’s well known jack is not a fan of imc, but to devote a whole post on annual imc firing is just waste even for your time

    rob n pot, for coming year, why don’t you keep getting rid of couple people every month, it’ll keep everyone on toes whole year round, no sugar high and lows during bonus period and no pesky amsterdam trader blog bitching

  2. “I don’t see why the mums’ and dads’ long-term investment strategy should necessarily take precedence over someone else’s short-term strategy,” he says

    he clearly don’t know how politicians operate

  3. lol that article can’t even get people’s background right: Clint and Campbell were from the IMC faction, not Optiver

  4. The author clearly shows how much an idiot he is when saying:

    “wrote a sequence of programming code to improve its trading speed from 80 milliseconds to a staggering 0.5 to 1.5 milliseconds.”

  5. is Campbell still at Tibra London? And by the way, the best part of Tibra is the IMC-DNA, Optiver only brings troubles… IMC can be honoured by this.

  6. ‘it’s well known jack is not a fan of imc’

    not really true, jack is simply an objective professional journalist.

  7. he is not the only idiot around

    someone got more insight on improvement from 80ms to 0.5-1.5ms?

  8. yes, jack is simply an objective professional journalist when it comes to reporting on imc, he got absolutely no hard feeling for all the torture they put him through last year

  9. imc don’t need their dna in a failed mm, they just need to bring their level of moaning and complaining down, it’s just painful and def not good for long term prospects

  10. Perks at Tibra were good and included an in-house massage service and eight weeks of annual leave.

    may it rest in peace

  11. > Clint Maddock and Campbell Norwood were from the IMC faction, not Optiver
    And Christian King too.
    Hi all! tovo

  12. Volumes on Eurex and Euronext are lowest they have ever been. Most money in all firms coming from US and then Asia in that order.

  13. Trouble with IMC is that they have no senior people with true management and leadership skills, so when they think they’re not achieving their desired targets they can only resort to firing people. They believe the problem lies with staff, always. They do not understand the multitude of factors which contribute to success, and which you need to actively manage. At one point they started to hire some good, experienced managers and leaders but then fired them for not singing to the company tune. Sure, IMC make money form time to time, but they’re not a good example of a well run organisation with happy staff.

  14. Why would anyone want to still work for a company that has a policy to fire people every year just-because.

  15. Got enough capital, tech and young blood to make it through. Won’t be the juggernaut they were perceived to be in 07-08 but will do ok, much better than most firms folding in coz of no technology.

  16. financial markets and trading are direct derivative of general health in economy, what else do you expect from eurex/euronext in eurozone compared to their american and asian counterparts

  17. firing people is not last resort mate, it’s very much a hygiene requirement in financial markets, if you can’t keep up and don’t wanna leave yourself, well then we’ll open the door for you, nothing personal, work hard at next shop. This is a people’s business, the problem of course lies with the wrong people in the organization and the dead wood needs to be removed regularly. Which other multitude of factors towards success are you talking about?

    Of course IMC is not well run firm and multiple suggestions of their short termism is not good in long run, unhappy and backstabbing culture doesn’t help

  18. Have you looked at the unemployment rate? If you get a job in IMC you take it, if you get something better you can always leave later on

  19. mate if tibra is rocking and rolling, good for them, resting in peace is nothing personal, companies fail all the time, you can build a new one, not a problem

    and as for impression of juggernaut, stop deluding yourself about that, maybe in the oldskool dutch town

    and stop comparing yourself with other shitty places to look better relatively speaking, get real once in a while

  20. Hi! A newbie here. Why do all these HFT MM firm have HQ in the Netherlands and Amsterdam in particular? Is there any particular tax or politics related reason?

    Thanks

  21. It’s legacy from the traditionally active option market icw Dutch culture. Easily adapting to changing markets, already involved in tech, easily cross- bordering to earn a buck. But no strategic reason; could easily end if circumstances deteriorate.

  22. And what’s the taxation for capital gains for individual persons in the Netherlands? Let’s say I buy 500000 shares of Shell for 1 euro and sell them 1 month later for 2 euro each?

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  24. “You pay 1.2% of your assets every year, whether you lost money or doubled it.”

    That’s great and way different than in other coutries. I imagine that for that reason you seek highly “speculative” assets like shares or in general derivatives. And for that reason the derivative industry has flourished in the Netherlands. No one would buy, let’s say, a 10 YR Dutch Government Bond and hold it at maturity or something like that.

  25. I would say that Dutch taxation is lower than in US,UK, DE, IT,FR..basically maybe only Switzerland, Cyprus or Malta have a lower taxation. Good. I have to take the residence in the Netherlands sooner or later LOL

  26. Expats get a discount. The native Dutch man with a pay higher than Rutte has a much higher tax burden than the European average. Around 1,8x the av. So be the judge yourself. We’re better off moving to somewhere with mountains or sun.

  27. “Expats get a discount. The native Dutch man with a pay higher than Rutte has a much higher tax burden than the European average. Around 1,8x the av. So be the judge yourself. We’re better off moving to somewhere with mountains or sun.”

    Yes but the “wealth tax” is the same for Dutch and foreigners?Isn’t it?
    If one lives of daytrading and has a pretty good capital moving to the netherlands seems like a good move. I think.

  28. Expats in the NL and Dutch people who lived abroad for 10 years can get a tax discount, called 30% ruling, where this portion of your gross income is tax free for 10 years.

    They also have a pretty lax tax on capital gains from what I know.

  29. coz Tibra got enough capital, tech and young blood to make it through. Won’t be the juggernaut they were perceived to be in 07-08 but will do ok, much better than most firms folding in coz of no technology.

  30. “And what’s the taxation for capital gains for individual persons in the Netherlands? Let’s say I buy 500000 shares of Shell for 1 euro and sell them 1 month later for 2 euro each?”

    Provided you don’t do this often, you will not pay capital gains/income tax on the profit. By the same logic, you cannot deduct losses.

    However, if you are actually daytrading – as in: spending several hours a day on what is essentially your JOB – you gains will be taxed as if it were regular work income. In other words, 52% from 60k onwards. Ouch. Expect to run into this situation if you are succesful, unless you can demonstrate that indeed you are an ultra low frequency investor. You may not apply for the expat discount if you don’t have a formal employer. Add to that the 1.2% wealth tax and the conclusion must be that the person who thought it was wise for a daytrader to move to Holland has no fucking clue.

  31. Hi!
    Does anybody know about HiqInvest/Degiro in Amsterdam?
    I have received a job offering from them..
    TX

  32. if you are able to generate money for them that’s fine, but do not expect that they tell you how to do this, otherwise do not mess up with such small unknown companies

  33. I miss the discussion here why these people were fired. According to the new website of IMC they are still hiring talented people. Does this mean these fired people were not talented ?
    Do I understand it right that also an IT team left IMC themselves after this ?

    Is IMC still doing as OK as last year ?

  34. they fired them to reduce head counts+costs. They still to selective hiring. The fired the MD Europe because he was incompetent and did not manage properly the business. IMC is doing well in Asia and US, not so well in Amsterdam, the Zug office is doing well since Koen Huisman did not focus anymore on this office.

  35. imc has standard policy to get rid of dead wood in the company from time to time, nothing wrong with that, imc employees has standard policy to come and bitch about their employer on this blog, nothing wrong with that too

    the funny thing though is that while other companies do have high turnover imc style, there is much less bitching from the rest of market, tibra and bankrupt firms are an exception, there is lot of moaning from that group unfortunately

  36. there was also lots of moaning for source capital and optiver in the past. Your analysis is therefore not correct.

  37. of course, the entire analysis is incorrect and useless because source wasn’t included in the list

    kindly don’t bunch optiver with imc, tibra and source, don’t know what have you been smoking tonight

  38. I hope Campbell’s wife cheats on him with a taxi driver – he deserves it more than Hilgers.

  39. ‘However, if you are actually daytrading – as in: spending several hours a day on what is essentially your JOB – you gains will be taxed as if it were regular work income. In other words, 52% from 60k onwards. Ouch. Expect to run into this situation if you are succesful, unless you can demonstrate that indeed you are an ultra low frequency investor. ‘

    As far as I know there are no cases of this going to court, and you can be pretty sure that anyone who suddenly gets taxed in box 1 would take this to court. So it’s not as straightforward as you make it out to be.
    On the other hand there are cases where people tried to deduct their losses (unsuccessfully).

  40. source capital is almost bankrupt, they do not manage to hire traders anymore and are left with only a handful of traders now.

  41. Got enough capital, tech and young blood to make it through. Won’t be the juggernaut they were perceived to be in 07-08 but will do ok, much better than most firms folding in coz of no technology.

  42. Problem with IMC being that they fire the wrong people. Guess Tim Edwards is still employed? How about Bridget? Jan Willem?

  43. “You’ll probably see the commission coalesce around those enforcement cases and then bring new rules on high-frequency trading,” a source with knowledge of the SEC’s thinking told The Post. “There’s a lot of pressure on the SEC to act.”

    Goodnight IMC and Optiver

    *song “Here’s to you” by Joan Baez plays in the background*

  44. problem with disgruntled employees is that they think they are more useful to rob n pot than others, you have to learn to put yourself in their shoes and then realize how and why the decision making happens

  45. imc and optiver are not so-called ‘hft stock traders’, they are options mm and fast arb traders at best

  46. Wouldnt optiver IMC TIbra all be considered High Frequency given their investment in Technology, Co-located servers and 50% IT staff ?

    Which firms can be classified as High frequency traders ?
    Getco, Sun, ???

  47. That story has about as much depth as you can expect from the herald. Their expertise is more in areas like Kim Kardashian’s butt, youtube clips that have gone ‘viral’ and the latest shenanigans of NSW politicians.

  48. ‘Wouldnt optiver IMC TIbra all be considered High Frequency given their investment in Technology, Co-located servers and 50% IT staff’

    of course

  49. @1:13AM Tibra never made any money on stat arb or lat arb, their pure arb strategies were always too dumb to do more than break even

    @10:06AM more like NSFW politicians

  50. wasn’t arb@tibra setup under toon, how many mios did he print?

    define ‘NSFW politician’

  51. Recall that 1 yr ago IMC Chicago also went on a firing spree. They fired people suspected of leaking the bonus information. Maybe they wanted to fire people and used the bonus as an excuse. In either case some long serving loyal employees were let go.

    And people wonder why IMC is so hated. And no not all firm do the shitty things that IMC has an is capable of doing

  52. There is a clique at IMC, like many companies, and this clique gets rid of anyone who threatens to make them look incompetent. Every now and then Rob ‘n Wiet get rid of someone truly incompetent. IMC is run like a “family business” when normal management and leadership concepts do not apply.

    Can someone post a list of names of those people who left / were fired from IMC in the past month?

  53. Got enough capital, tech and young blood to make it through. Won’t be the juggernaut they were perceived to be in 07-08 but will do ok, much better than most firms folding in coz of no technology.

  54. Revenue — 18 Million
    Profit Before Tax — 3.8 Million

    Profit After Tax — 2.1 Million

  55. currency is usd?
    is 18mio gross trading pnl for tibra ldn+ams?
    how much of that traders pocket, 5-6mio? how many traders, 20-30?
    if on average they are pocketing 250k average, that’s not too bad for them?

  56. Jan Willem Kohne has a new job.
    Now Managing Director, Head of Europe at IMC financial markets & asset management – One of the ‘partners’, formerly head of global hr. Good guy

  57. wow, 14 mos, 18 mos, you guys got nothing better to care, good for you guys, atleast you are not moaning and complaining about your miserable existence

  58. where did all the short sellers disappear, when it’s time to really squeeze them, they go cowering to their mama’s place, bloody cowards

  59. any office that does not exist any more can be called successful if their expected return on capital < required rate of capital

    why are people still living in the rosy world, shouldn't you guys wake up already, financial industry needs to dramatically shrink, that's the way it is, straight up

  60. JW is a good man, and a yes man, so the two can co-exist. He speaks his mind and challenges the yes-club. I wish him well.

    He is a good manager of people but I wonder how successful he’ll be at driving innovation in the trading space – which is what the MD is meant to do?

    For those who don’t know, he is an engineer in qualification.

  61. yah, duh.

    rob n pot, pls give ivo lowest performance rating in the next appraisal round and then put him on performance improvement plan for next few months thereafter, at the end of which you can hand him his employment termination

    also, you can hire me as your head of human resources, i will do much better job than the clowns in that corner hr office, get in touch with jack for my ip and i be happy to provide you my up-to-date cv

  62. Ivo needs to go. Followed by Joe Monge his butt buddy and then Bridgette the useless HR demon.

    Pick any order does not matter.

  63. when you say that ‘HFT not all that bad’, that implies HFT is actually indeed bad? and the extent to its ‘badness’ can obviously not be quantified in absolute terms? and why shouldn’t it be fixed alongside other existing loopholes, why does it necessarily have to be queued up behind odd-lots, are regulators that short-staffed?

  64. you can just say, ‘senior successful traders at IMC do not have a linkedin page'; you don’t have to start with the dick size competition, there is your problem with IMC culture straight away, not everything in life is about bloody money

  65. @HFT not all that bad

    That BB article was an interesting read. I wonder if odd lots are excluded from the BBO on other major exchanges?

  66. Surely odd lot exclusion globally, as that would likely represent those locations where HFT firms have the opportunity to cream it ?

  67. ‘Surely odd lot exclusion globally’

    so you are sure that odd lots are treated same way across all exchanges globally?

  68. solution to hft headache is simple, regular auctions through out the day, not thousands, just handful would be enough

  69. a market place, where one party is way too advanced and is able to generate risk-less profit from other parties, is not going to last very long. Sooner or later, all other parties are going to move to a new market place with better playing field, with 100km of fiber or otherwise

  70. Credit to IMC for organizing drinks for the 25 yr anniversary inviting all alumni. Also the ones that had to settle via court

  71. you are both stephen, v1.0 and v2.0, now stop jacking off with each other, kiss and make up, imc style, has rob n pot put in some new forward looking people in top management, there is significantly less moaning and complaining from imc crowd, finally getting out of their pettiness and constant back stabbing, it was tiring

  72. Yep all the HFT SMEs are going to get smashed by the major leagues now that goldman and the weight of influence they have in changing the exchange landscape in their favour has an interest – imc, tibra et al will be the first to winge though when the environment changes against them.

  73. you can gloat once the bottom leechers hft wannabes are actually out of business for good

  74. ‘Credit to IMC for organizing drinks for the 25 yr anniversary inviting all alumni. Also the ones that had to settle via court’

    not all alumni have been invited

  75. yes, you are an alumni, even though you were so shit that we had to encourage you to move on after mere 8 weeks, but hey, water under the bridge, come have a drink with us and enjoy our 25 year success story

    if any alumni hasn’t been invited, pls send out your up-to-date contact details, as you can expect some alumni’s contact details are not up-to date and we can’t reach out even though we desperately want you to join us and drink to our next 25 year of continued success forthcoming

  76. sounds about as fun as the annual trip. I can’t wait to stand around and talk about how fast my car is.

  77. when and where is this alumni gathering? Can you post a an invitation list on facebook?

  78. thanks for submitting your IP address, IMC will reach you there, no email is required

  79. “Actually, they’re holding them for tiny fractions of a second. According to the SEC itself, 38% of trades are held for 50 milliseconds or less.”

    38% of CANCELED QUOTES are posted for 50 milliseconds or less.

    Big difference.

  80. yes, it was understood they meant QUOTES and not actual SCALPS genius, they are not brilliant as you, so they can be loose with the terminology

  81. if there are people who found better working conditions outside of imc kudos to you…

    and the people who are pretending to be people they are not with their bullshit posts on this site, get a life…

  82. Excessive financialisation – profits are becoming harder to come by and HFT firms are unfortunately lower on the pecking order. Expect this demonising to continue…….

  83. There is no demonising of hft, they really are useless, that’s all, if you can handle the truth

  84. A lot of people apparently care. You are clearly clueless. Go away now in your mama’s basement.

  85. you care about who rob n pot invited to their useless drinks, where they can show off their fast cars?

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