25 May

IMC shuts down Hong Kong

Als ze maar van de weekend school afblijvenHeard it through the grapevine, wasn’t able to double check the rumor. Don’t take it as a hard confirmed fact just yet, but the following story has been buzzing around.  It’s short:

IMC has shut down their Hong Kong office. Everybody is fired. Operations move to Sydney.

Would fit nicely in their bold tradition of axing staff. At least I hope the IMC weekend school in Hong Kong is untouched.

To be continued.

Update 1:  Confirmed. The offices in Sydney and Hong Kong will be merged into the Sydney office.  The Hong Kong activities will be carried on from there.  A number of HK people will be employed in Sydney.

Update 2: IMC has a commitment for continuation of the Hong Kong Sundayschool. Former IMC employee, Tom Voute and his company Algorithmic Trading Group have already expressed an interest in helping out.

 

654 thoughts on “IMC shuts down Hong Kong

  1. so long suckers

    will be very interesting to see how the nikkei changes without them in it

  2. good guys, they will be missed in hk, it s just a rumour am sure they will do well regardless of their location. stop bad mouthing them. nothing bad to say about those guys

  3. I can confirm the rumor is true. Office will be closed, some staff transferred. Most will get the sack.

  4. Confirmed. Only the RO’s will stay so they can still trade through HK. That’s a big office for 4 people ;)

  5. What’s so unfortunate about that, all the bloody mm have been decimated over past few years, ex-employees would find new jobs, given the background of countries going bankrupt and 25% unemployment, this is much less unfortunate,  

  6. they should save on rent and move out of central… just like all the other mms….

  7. The company is still quite profitable despite collapse of the volatility in 2012… Such an asshole management who have done that!!

  8. At least CEO can buy yet another Ferrari to hardly ever drive and the guy holding the axe in HK gets a fancy watch for doing so again.

  9. buddy this is not socialism where you can cast bad eye on boss’s ferrari, do your job till you are required and once done, be on your way, and then repeat it all over again, lol,

  10. @1:40: based on what do you say this? It is certainly true that BH is a much better manager than trader, but this makes him by far not a good manager

  11. Don’t think I’d be happy being asked to go from paying 15% tax in Hong Kong to 50% in Sydney if I were one of the “chosen”.

  12. So you deny people the right to be unhappy if their job is taken away and they are being offered a (possibly) worse one instead?

  13. no, they have the right to be unhappy but IMC does not want unhappy employees, so they better find another job so that all are happy

  14. Scott Knudsen (head of trading in hong kong) has a golden opportunity to pull a Tim Edwards: hosting farewell drinks where the guests have to pay for their own

  15. What does it matter if you have to pay for your own drinks at his party? (a.k.a. Tim Edwards style)

  16. Brian Hitchcock a good manager?
    True!
    At IMC managers are good if they:
    – are no good traders
    – don’t understand IT
    – lick Rob Defares’ behind

  17. you do not need to undestand a lot about trading or IT to be a good manager, you need to understand and motivate people and develop the business

  18. lol, how would a manager mentor the staff if he don’t understand business or IT, the manager does the appraisal of employee’s work, he is not a bloody company shrink,

  19. Its amazing how optiver has everything planned out with structures in place and everyone else is just following their structure and pattern.

    Big base in sydney and an small office for Ro has been their model for ages.

    Similar for America where everything is in Chicago and they trade NY from there as well. Better at doing it than most american firms. Hats off to those guys.

  20. it happens in a screwed up way, that’s how it happens, how can a manager know good talent from useless morons if he doesn’t know business or IT ? so he retains people who kisses up to him ?

  21. let’s not exagerate, IMC managers know about trading and IT, but they do not know about managing people

  22. IMC managers retain people who are not able to compete with them, to save their position. That’s why the most incompetent go up!

  23. That happens in every place, the govt most of all, protect your position first and foremost, suck upto boss and company can go suck my dry balls,

  24. Robin should be promoted to global head of…
    Global heads!
    Or something.
    Because of his outstanding achievements in the field of…
    I don’t know, he must have done a lot of great things…
    Dividend gambling! That’s it! At least one year he was right.

  25. shame. imc guys are good blokes. employees anyway.
    tim edwards and nathan orie still going to be around? or are they out? surely brian will look after those guys???

  26. these guys will all struggle to get a job. unfortunate but true. who hires ex mm’s these days? noone..

  27. I bet all the duchies and Aussies got the jobs to move. The locals got fired. Pretty much how imc works. Not how good you are or how much experience you have. It is all about what nationality you are. Fascist bastards

  28. Oops, bad bet. Not all the Aussies got offered jobs, while plenty of locals did. Try again.

  29. nevertheless, Brian Hitchcock is a very good manager, he built a very profitable business

  30. Scott is preparing his version Tim Edwards farewell drinks. The way it works is: you got paid plenty in Hong Kong and when you leave you invite everyone for a farewell party at a bar. Turns out everyone has to pay for their own drinks! Hahahahaha!

  31. correction, Brian Hitchcock is a very good manager, he got a very profitable bonus
    the business building is done by others

  32. those who got a good bonus will always be criticized by those who didn’t, regardless of the reason

  33. Hong Kong is no place for a trading company Sydney is .
    It is no surprise they moved .

  34. All Dutchies were given jobs. Scott was given a job. Goods ones were let go because they were not Dutchies. Or friendly with Scott

  35. its a dutch company with lots of dutchchies at top, partiality for fellow dutchch speakers would be given, everybody in the industry has a big ego and there are plenty of arse kissers to pamper to that, nothing of this need any disclosures and should be fully expected,

  36. it did really well and asia pacific as a whole is doing very well, it simply makes no sense to have a HK office. Tim went to Chicago.

  37. cannot be true, then why do they close the HK office and fire people if things go so well?

  38. No use for 2 offices in one timezone and coz Hitchcock was fed up going back and forth Sydney/HK..

  39. Profit IMC something like €146 mln. Was in the press release and Dutch papers. €546 net trading revenues globally. €206 staff remuneration for 658 staff. Didn’t memorize the numbers exactly so might be a FEW million difference here and there.

  40. IMC APAC has HK + SYD, if they can do the same revenue with lesser of fixed cost of HK, then why not, there is cost saving and efficiency drive everywhere these days,

  41. there is no compliance issue, the reason is that it made no more sense to have two offices in the same region. IMC decided to focus on the best office and to eliminate the under performers, which for a strange reason were all sent to or hired and kept in HK. And it is not true that all managers are dutch, Brian, Tim, Scott are not and they do not give a shit about holland

  42. he was an IMC star trader, who decided to make his own company and not give part of the money he made to rob or some IMC managers…

  43. Zug will close next? Impossible, that’s the office making currently most of the money.

  44. Scott the chief is phenomenal – came to take charge of the office since Sep last year and the PnL dropped dramtically since then. And he achieved an unremarkable contribution to the office – close it down and fook the locals.

  45. “29-May-2012; 10:15; Mediation; Registrar Tesoriero; Level 17 Mediation Room”

    “04-Jun-2012; 10:15; Hearing; Justice Rares; Court Room 18C”

    Will post more as it comes to hand.

  46. The two parties were forced into mediation by the judge in an order made on the 11th of May. The trial starts Monday (unless the mediation produces a result).

  47. if it goes against tibra how it will it affect the current employees or just the original co-founders?

  48. “if it goes against tibra how it will it affect the current employees or just the original co-founders?”

    It would be absurd if employees were asked to bear any responsibility for what (allegedly!) happened years ago. I imagine that any damages awarded would be borne by the shareholders or the individual respondents.

  49. because it has been a couple of years how do the courts “claw back” damages from repsondents – is it directly form their own personal equity tied up in the company; not the companies (non-involved shareholders)? Or if the damages are significant do the courts sieze assets? (of those individual respondents) And would the damages be spread equally amongst the respondents or is their level of guilt (alledgedly) determine how much they have to pay?

  50. The current proceedings are only to determine liability, there would be separate proceedings to determine quantum of damages. It would depend very much on the outcome of the current hearing on liability as to what the damages might be.

    If it turned out that only one person copied Optiver code unbeknownst to the rest of the founders then the quantum hearing would be very different to a scenario where all the founders conspired to copy Optiver code.

    A hearing on damages is no means a certainty – Optiver need to win the liability hearing first, and even then the damages hearing would be some time away.

  51. By the way, how is Tibra doing? Seems they are not really growing their revenues in the last years? Would they be able to survive if they are found to be guilty?

  52. thankyou for your repsonse. I can assume that the company is relatively safe and employee jobs are as well? So if someone did copy it the everyone wont lose their jobs – just the guilt respondents (alledgely)

  53. Optiver leaders should stop being silly, get real and hack the legal costs, there is no reward for putting more resources to this fight with Tibra, just write off the historic costs and get on with life,

  54. This discussion is whatever people wanna talk about, like about your mama from last night,
     

  55. Mediation was unsuccessful (“Finalised – Not Resolved”).

    Trial starts Monday.

  56. The trial goes from the 4th of June to the 27th of July, but of course it could go for shorter or longer. This trial is to decide only the question of liability. If Optiver cannot demonstrate their claim, then there will obviously be no hearing for damages.

  57. So how well Tibra did recently? What was the profit for 2011H2? Was it 36M for 2011H1, right? Anyone cares to share?

  58. I am concerned about Tibra employees – is it a possible outcome that employees will lose their jobs. I poster stated once liability is determine then it is the quantum of damages. Is it possible that Tibra will go bankrupt and everyone lose their jobs or Optiver take over Tibra or only the respondents lose their money and evryone else keeps their jobs

  59. they don’t need to queue for your mamma, direct entry, straight through processing, right upto her cooch,

  60. Tibra profits 2012 are basically Tibra’s annual profits, as their financial year ends in june

  61. And wim Den Hartog from GS has just left to join IMC. Rumour has it that he is going to manage the Chicago office. Another yes man to join the team!!!

  62. goldman prime brokerage for market makers and prop shops

    hes a yes man and is going to run IMC Chicago

  63. a broker running a prop trading shop? A part brokerage fees and commissions the guy should have no clue about high frequency trading, no? And what’s with the previous chicago management?

  64. I would imagine they want this GS guy to kiss up to appropriate exchanges, other liquidity providers, market structure people, etc. IMC needs to build those relationships more and those will become increasingly important as they rely on razor thin margins per trade. IMC is a volume shop. Does not warehouse risk. Next move is dark pools, buying order flow, etc. Plus he’s Dutch and they’re clearly better than the Americans! God forbid they actually reward some people who made them millions, or mios as you stupid Dutch people say.

    Now the Scott move, that is just straight up nepotism. The management likes him. Why? I don’t know. No one knows, really. I think they must understand at this point that he is neither a good manager nor a good trader. However, he is certainly a “yes man” and is willing to do their dirty work. A pretty rare quality and probably a valuable one to certain powers that be in IMC. Although, being a serial killer is a rare quality too.

  65. 90% of the money at IMC does not come from relationships, better fees, buying order flow… But from trading and IT.

  66. they dont make money with trading, thats why they have moved into hedge funds, and credit hedge funds, something they knoe nothing about!

  67. “90% of the money at IMC does not come from relationships, better fees, buying order flow… But from trading and IT.”

    No one said they did. The implication was clearly that these are things they can add to their arsenal to improve trading and IT.

  68. Hartog guy probably will take role of earlier mentioned v boxel, who then most likely quitz. 3:50 is spot on.

  69. Pls note prime brokerage doesn’t mean Hartog was a broker, it’s more like custody and servicing to hedge funds,
     
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_brokerage
     
    Also note he’s to run the office/location, not the trading itself, admin/business function is slightly difference from trading function,

  70. ‘No one said they did. The implication was clearly that these are things they can add to their arsenal to improve trading and IT.’

    This is a prime eg of ‘Yes Man’

  71. @ 3:50pm “Next move is dark pools, buying order flow, etc.”

    The screen is dead. Long live buying-stupid-retail-flow!

  72. it is not so easy as it seems to make money with stupid retail flow after costs, this flow is quite expensive, the times of making easy money with trivial ideas are over

  73. “So Tibra made 25mil in a year while IMC made 430mil ?”

    hard to say, 25 seems to be profits while 430 trading revenues, moreover the time periods do not overlap (june – june vs dec -dec). In addition we do not know if these are euros.
    Somebody mentioned IMC made 146 in profits, so IMC made 6 times as much as Tibra with 3 times as much people, not bad if true

  74. Scott is back Sep 2012. The two other partners in Chicago did not want the role. Scott had no job since HK shut. So they move him back to Chicago as a token American leader. They then bring in this Dutchie den hartog to watch over the Chicago office. As if the owners did not trust what was going on or that imc did not have the management talent in house. They had to bring a junior md from clearing to run the place. This is laughable at best and insulting at least. What happens to local management once van boxsel leaves Chicago?

  75. ‘Long live buying-stupid-retail-flow!’

    check NYSE volumes, decline for straight 5 years,

    with no bubble or credit expansion and decade of deleveraging still ahead, retail can’t make money after costs, there is only direction for volume/retail flow,

  76. ‘the times of making easy money with trivial ideas are over’

    what smart ideas did you come up with ?

  77. somebody had been stating that 25 for tibra could be just attributable to english entity, for tax purposes, most other revenues would be booked in euro or other entities,

  78. Is this new dutchy from Goldman one of Wiets people? Is Lenterman still there? How many other Goldman people are still at IMC?

  79. Like Facebook to the public, imc to Goldman will be a dumb, bad, and idiotic trade. Goldman is in another league. Imc still plays in the juniours

  80. why do you think Facebook can’t go to 150bn valuation and comparing like to like, in what aspect is IMC inferior to Goldman?

  81. Wim was an average performer at GS. He was there a very long time before he made it to MD. Not that an averge performer at GS is bad, just that there were many qualified people to take the role. Rob is looking for a yes man or as they say in the US someone to be his biyatch. They found it in Wim who is not a good choice.

  82. GS is not superior to IMC, they cheat, rob rich clients, help countries to fake their balance sheets, and get state money to survive. IMC is much superior. And no former GS man added any value to IMC up to now.

  83. @11:13 if GS did what you say it did they are automatically superior to all other firms.

  84. ‘You are of course joking.’

    you missed the context of my question, i specifically said, ‘comparing like to like’, this part is important, how is IMC inferior to GS?

  85. ‘if GS did what you say it did they are automatically superior to all other firms.’

    true, this is bread n butter of bulge bracket, they maintain an oligopoly of this too, in India the cut on m&a collapsed to few basis points because they got competitive with each other, here in US they have maintained a strict cartel charging 5%+ on mid-tier, even on FB they got away with 2% cut!

  86. ‘no former GS man added any value to IMC up to now.’

    didn’t wein put in his personal wealth into IMC? that’s whole lot of value i should say,

  87. ‘Rob is looking for a yes man or as they say in the US someone to be his biyatch’

    you have to think from Rob’s prespective, US is golden chicken, he doesn’t want agressive young gun like Danny coming and spoiling the set-up, if the good US employees got together they might break away from IMC all together and form a competing firm, a la Tibra,

  88. So if Rob wants to cash out, either he can downsize the capital/company and himself a big dividend or get external investor wein to put in replacement capital so the business/capital remains strong and growing, wein’s capital is at risk and so naturally any upside also goes to him, IMC capital has done well for both wein and the company, is that not a value add ?

  89. Typical IMC run by Rob and Wiet. Bring in people you know not based on their accomplishments. Bring in a failure from clearing to run your most successful office. Nice thinkining mates. Another All Options in the making.

    I say hartog stays for 10 months before he is fired.

  90. Is Duke the new Chicago Van Boxsel ? Wow. No one in Chicago could do that job that they had to find someone only marginally talented. Wonder how these guys think sometimes..

  91. Are there still any Dutchies in HK with ALL Options, SAEN, IMC Gone?
    Or only Matthew Hoyle to give ‘em new jobs??

  92. Do you know how many before, currently and in future would GS Redi have had employees working on it, and you are calling his mess, unlike trading where one person takes risk, REDI is multi year, multi team project, the MD’s at top can only influence so much right direction and of course when time comes, they need to exit out to IMC at short notice,

  93. which part is not clear, GS REDI has had hundreds of staff/team worked over the years, how can you call it Hartog’s Mess, if you work in MO/BO you would realise it’s as dysfunctional as govt departments, the only difference is that unlike govt, you can get fired from MO/BO for being in bottom 10%,

  94. ‘didnt get a bonus and wasnt respected bythe GS hierarchy’
     
    He was a bloody MD in a clearing business, what do you expect, large bonus and great respect?

  95. ‘Typical IMC run by Rob and Wiet. Bring in people you know not based on their accomplishments. Bring in a failure from clearing to run your most successful office’
     
    Again, you have to think from Rob’s prespective, US office is goose laying golden egg, he doesn’t want agressive young gun like Danny coming and spoiling the set-up, if the good US employees got together they might break away from IMC all together and form a competing firm, a la Tibra,

  96. no they won’t stop them, but it’s easier to control Danny’s working inside the company using Hortag,

    again, you are not putting yourself in Rob’s shoes, the goose laying golden eggs in IMC America must be preserved,

  97. And you cannot explain to us why Dan hartog instead of say Tim Edwards. What will Dan hartog do that Tim or someone else currently employed by IMC cannot do to stops Danny. The Risk and Compliance And legal group is very strong.

  98. Risk/Compliance/Legal are control functions, over the business, they themselves don’t exercise control over the people who run the business, for that you need a ‘yes man’

    Tim Edwards lost the trust of Rob/Wein ?

  99. Den Hahartog is not a junior MD. He is a grey haired sales guy who left Fortis Clearing to overpromise Goldman Clearing to new customers over and over again. They made him MD for that.

  100. even more from the HK office have quit rather than moving to Sydney now.

    speculation they’re going more timberhill style auto/algo trading – less traders needed for that. less of a presence in the broker market.

  101. The yanks are not the problem in IMC Chicago. There is a saying – you send in a psycho to deal with the psychos. Den Hartog is being sent to deal with the DUtch problem but of course he makes it worse because he is part of the problem. It took him over 10 years to make MD at GS the clearing side. He is a light weight and not that impressive. He is what whey call a MD lite and he also f***ed up a lot in London.

  102. Rob announced the news to the Chicago office on Tuesdag. Drinks were made available to toast. Rob made the announcement and no questions were asked. Then 95% of the people just left and went back to their work or went home. A few people stayed back for drinks which was very strange because usually many more people stay and drink when the owners are in town. Talking around the office it seemd that people were expecting better news. It was depressing and most of the people just hated what they were being told. Now there is no clarity in the office, the morale is low and people just are not giving a shit. I expect a few key people to leave IMC rather than deal with all this nonesense.

  103. let me take a guess, people in imc Chicago are even more disgusted with dutch voc mentaliteit,

  104. In case you don’t know for MO/BO, 10 years to make MD is normal, again, it’s not a bloody trading desk where you can hit it out of the park for couple of years and be made MD, Clearing is multi-year project/business with hundreds of staff required to execute, not where a young gun hot shot trader by himself can make tens of millions,

  105. why are you calling it nonsense, give the poor Hartog atleast couple of chances to mess up before key employees decide to leave,

  106. This was supposed to be about HK but became about Hartog. Rumour has it he has not even visited the office or talked to most of the people in Chicago. Strange that he accepted this job without doing his research. Or maybe he is guaranteed a million Euros or more. Also, Goldman clearing is losing a lot of people. So Hartog probably decided to jump before it was too late. I think IMC could and should have done better.

  107. You Dutch are dirty smelly racist bastards anyways. Your pimple like nation adds nothing to human value. Just extrement and bad English, maybe. Voc mentality my arse. You are an inferior people and get used to it.

  108. Hartog was at Fortis for 15 years. So it took him a total of 25 years to make MD. I think that is bad even for a BO role. What does this clown look like ?

  109. why is there all this worry? We all know that the head of an office does not count anything at IMC, the core business is run by others and others are also making a bigger bonus. This Wim is not even a partner at IMC, he will do the administration and sign the papers

  110. that’s why the other senior managers in Chicago did not want the role, they prefer to make the money and get a big bonus

  111. The post heading is about IMC HK, but audience hasn’t got much to discuss the past, they are looking for future and future is Hartog,

  112. If he ain’t getting any cash or respect in GS Clearing, getting an opportunity to be ‘head’ of IMC Chicago is good enough for Hartog to move, he doesn’t need to meet Chicago people, he just need to be on right frequency with his boss Rob/Wein,
     
    You are incorrect in trying to asses what is good for IMC, again, you have to put yourself in Rob’s shoes, what is good for him? He thinks Hartog is good for him and well that’s what counts, doesn’t matter what’s best for IMC,

  113. Hartog actually did well in making MD after 25 years, he could have been close in being made MD at 15 year mark in Fortis but then 2001 crisis happened at that time, he did well in moving to GS during that period, then few years down the line he could have again been close to being made MD at GS when 2007 crisis happened, there after having missed MD promotion twice at 15 and 20 year mark, its pretty good that he got it at 25 year mark, usually you don’t get second chances leave alone third chance in this industry, once you are passed over for promotion, you end up getting managed out or being replaced by somebody younger,  

  114. well you might not give a damn about MO/BO, but for thousands employed there, its their source of livelihood, they have of course embraced mediocre average existence and of course there really is not much difference in working for MO/BO vs Insurance, dead end any which ways,

  115. Van Boxel should have been fired years ago when he lost all those millions and got promoted instead. He has no skills IMC cannot live without, he’s an idiot. He’s been tolerated way too long for whatever reason …

  116. https://www.comcourts.gov.au/file/Federal/P/NSD681/2009/actions

    It appears the optiver and tibra case has been delayed (again).

    It is now set to go for the 5 Jul 12.

    Why is this drawing out so long?

    Any thoughts?

    And who is Nicholas Begg? Is he part of Optiver or Tibra or a 3rd party as he is the only one to be issued a subpeona. And Timothy Berry features alot as well with a lot of affadavits.

    http://www.brw.com.au/p/sections/features/young_rich_and_restless_XI4vBQN9jiYUXMryxDwQTI

    FYI

  117. It appears the optiver and tibra case has been delayed (again).

    It is now set to go for the 5 Jul 12.

    Why is this drawing out so long?

    Any thoughts?

    And who is Nicholas Begg? Is he part of Optiver or Tibra or a 3rd party as he is the only one to be issued a subpeona. And Timothy Berry features alot as well with a lot of affadavits.

  118. stop with all this court drama, eventually cftc got 12 mil for hammer, this tibra settlement will end too, sometime, you can’t keep discussing and holding your breath,

  119. we did not speak about Getco, does anyone know how they are doing? trading revenues and profits? Growth? Employee satisfaction?

  120. The case hasn’t been delayed – it starts this week, I don’t know what’s wrong with the website.

    Nick Begg and Tim Berry are both Tibra people. Neither of them do the actual filing of evidence, I think it’s another problem with the website. You can assume that anything listed as filed by either of them is actually filed by Tibra.

  121. there is nothing wrong with this website, there are just lot of different people posting and so you have to take it with a pinch of salt,

  122. here, the tips breakeven for 5 year has come down from 1.9 to 1.3, who was that moron talking about inflation and dow heading to 100,000..

  123. why is Getco a falling star? One reason i can think is they have tried to do too many things all at the same time, spreading out thin in an increasingly difficult market,

  124. “there is nothing wrong with this website, there are just lot of different people posting and so you have to take it with a pinch of salt,”

    I was referring to the ComCourts website:

    https://www.comcourts.gov.au/file/Federal/P/NSD681/2009/actions

    The trial has not been delayed, and where Begg and Berry are listed as filing evidence or subpoenas, it is probably because they are listed first alphabetically.

  125. more than 240 comments already … but not nearly as entertaining as the good old van der moolen posts

  126. getco is suffering from low volumes as probably many others, their option business did not work, and their are not making any money from their customer initiatives

  127. The only trading companies making money these days are the ultra-sophisticated ones (e.g. Renaissance, Webb Traders), some directional traders (e.g. Duyfken) and the odd one with substantial client flow (Interactive Brokers/Timber Hill). The others guys better learn how to drive a tractor.

  128. ‘I was referring to the ComCourts website:’

    yes i realized my mistake 5 min later, but you can’t delete your own comments here,

  129. yah vdm was good old dutchchie old school trader who went bankrupt in amsterdam, heart of amsterdam trader community, here we are just discussing moving imc hk operation to syd and imc chicago getting new office/admin head, the entertainment couldn’t nearly be as good,

  130. what, getco is not making money from client execution services, what a surprise, how does their UBS star coleman feel, getco founders seem to have run out of ideas when they promoted this clients execution wannabe in charge of the whole firm,

  131. getco seem to have started options business only few years ago, it be tough to get against all these entrenched citadels/jane street,

  132. Some people claim he once ate 4 dinosaur eggs in one sitting, others say he didn’t.

  133. “Is there any good manager at IMC?”

    Yes, good managers are:
    Koen H., Brian H., Ivo, Robin

  134. MD in prime brokerage at Goldman means nothing. They made quite a few MD’s in non trading and sales departments as they couldnt pay bonuses. IMC want wim as he is a yes man and also to let them know what all the other clients of GS are doing in the options space.

  135. a good manager is someone with a vision and the skills to develop the business, he can also motivate and develop his subordinates

  136. what would a vision and the skills to develop the business do when the business itself is dying>?

  137. why is being a ‘yes man’ looked down upon so much, i mean everyone is aware that everyone in this industry has a massive ego, being a ‘yes man’ is actually a very good strategy to manouvre in this sort of situation, say yes and you be taken care of, try it, works nicely,

  138. let’s face it, some make money in HF trading and some do not. IMC belongs to the first category. The business is not dying and can never die, in the same way arbitrage will always exist, but it will become more competitive

  139. the problem is if the “yes man” does not understand the core business. Then it is like communism, where meritocracy is replaced by a non-sense hierarchy, where many suffer for the benefit of few “supreme leaders”, like in the movie The Dictator. A situation which is obviously not sustainable.

  140. the business can die and would die if the volumes kept on going down and more competitors kept trying to out price each other, its not going to be this bad of course as markets still have some allure left after 30 years of super bubble, and the barriers to entry for competition is high,

  141. And given this high barriers to competitor entry, the communist situation you talk about can last for decades, look at soviet union, and now at china, they might actually pull off a success starting off as communists,

  142. no the commentator is alluding to communist behavior when the central high command dictates everything and installs a ‘yes man’ to help whip the peasants in line,

  143. Of course it is. Rob is Dear Leader and Wein is Feared Leader. The two of them run a feared enterprise where they dictate and others better follow or get out.

  144. what’s wrong with that, that’s the way all the little fiefdoms work in thus industry, my way or highway,

  145. “what happned in day one of the optiver tibra case!!!! anyone know?”

    Did anyone go as a spectator?

  146. hahah as spectator; yep they should have a hot dog stand at the front and watch from the cheap seats hahahahaha

  147. seems like the hate is shared around to a couple of companies – anybody go to the optiver tibra?

  148. actually for a company which does not care for the employees, deserves you not working for them, how’s that for an option, my way or highway,

  149. what’s about the goodbye party in HK, where everyone had to pay his own drinks. Did it take place already?

  150. any news on danny, what happened to his plans for collaborating with a bank to run a new mm operation,

  151. danny was a lucky guy in setting up Tibra at the right moment, recycling the trading ideas learned from Optiver and making all this money, his past success was a mixture of pure luck and perseverance, no trading talent involved at all. Even his (=Optiver’s) trading ideas are not working anymore, just see the results of Tibra in the last years…

  152. yah you can get few million bonus being in right spot at right time, you can invest that money and grow it several times being in right spot at right time, but luck runs out sooner or later thereafter,

  153. What has Tibra’s early success got to do with trading?

    Building faster exchange connectors for Orc, then calling yourself a trading firm is pretty lame.

    Insto dealers laugh at you.

  154. Tibra must have done something good to make all this money at the beginning, but what?

  155. good question – maybe one of the respondents will divulge all getting them all in the brown stuff – talk about court room drama

  156. What’s wrong with building faster exchange connectors and scalping 10 cents, danny made tens of millions off this business, those big swinging dealers sitting in banks can’t better him in personal wealth generated,

  157. whats wrong – its not productive use of capital either are the banks moving around money

  158. Big changes coming to the Chicago office of IMC . Stay around as the changes just announced are the beginning of another bloodbath like Amsterdam 2008 .

  159. Nice and gentle turnover of people over there. There is no such thing as bad publicity?

  160. IMC has been treating many (now ex) employees very unfairly over the years. Many hard working, loyal people have been dumped while some nitwit “managers” (read lousy traders with mediocre knowlegde of the business) who kiss Rob’s and Wiet asses have been allowed to stay.

  161. yes, its not productive use of capital, reminds me of munger’s comment, all these high frequency computer geeks are nothing better than bunch of rats let loose in your nation’s grainary,
     
    what amazes me is that retail are charged 0.5% stamp duty on UK stock trading, but the professional participants like Optiver are exempt from it, talk about stacking up the disadvantage on retail and giving free hand to professional participants,

  162. please come up with concrete facts and not speculative fear scenarios.

    IMC Chicago is doing great and traders are very happy there, especially considering that competitors are struggling. It is normal to have some fluctuation, people leave and join companies on a continuous basis everywhere

  163. The rhyme of the ancient IMC employee
    ———————————————————

    if you want to be robbed by Rob
    IMC is the place for a job

    if you are looking for a cheat
    it’s time to speak to Wiet

    if a slave you want to be
    then welcome to IMC!

  164. IMC is very fair, talented people made millions and it is normal that the less talented complain

  165. Actually its very hard for management to make difference from nitwit “managers”(lousy traders with mediocre knowlegde of the business) who kiss up vs the employees making genuine contribution to the organization,

    That’s why the organizations ain’t perfect and some moron can come claim ‘IMC is very fair, talented people made millions and it is normal that the less talented complain’; this guy is drunk on his own cool-aid, lol,

  166. 2008 bloodbath is when IMC fired a lot of staff in Amsterdam. In one day to work out for good shortly after.

  167. that’s an exaggeration, but many had lots of trouble to find a similar position and ended up in back office, risk management, unemployment, or left the industry

  168. that’s why IMC traders are payed so well, it is a risk to work for IMC and this is reflected in their salaries. Those who want less risk should work for a bank or insurance,

  169. “Actually its very hard for management to make difference from nitwit “managers” who kiss up vs the employees making genuine contribution to the organization”

    (seems the confession of a “yes man”)

    -> then you’ve got the wrong management

  170. “that’s why IMC traders are payed so well”

    Not so much. None in a market maker has a good base salary, except for the managers. It’s always a bonus risk situation. Cheap call option for the company. Reality is that bank and insurance guys generally out earn most mm traders over a 10 year period. Sadly.

  171. yah i was there. paul hilgers was called as a witness on behalf of optiver australia. other than his sworn confirmation of his vast personal wealth there was little of substance.

  172. Optiver has good base of 60k, what do you think is the euro amount which mm earns over 10 year, and corresponding numbers for bank and insurance people ?

  173. No it’s not that we have got wrong management, actually the owners here Rob/Weit are itself the management, so you just have to be a ‘yes man’ and kiss up,

  174. “please come up with concrete facts and not speculative fear scenarios.
    IMC Chicago is doing great and traders are very happy there, especially considering that competitors are struggling. It is normal to have some fluctuation, people leave and join companies on a continuous basis everywhere”

    Ha! IMC Human Resources clearly trolling this message board. Bridget is that you?! Did Ivo put you up to this?!

  175. “Who are the top yes men at IMC? In order of yes?”

    In Chicago:
    Scott
    Kyle
    JT
    BJ
    Larsen
    Evan
    Joe

  176. Still trade it from HK… One guy all alone in massive office till all set up in Sydney. Must be only thing they make serieus money then

  177. IMC yes men

    Jan W
    Osi L
    Scott K
    Justin C
    Koen
    Joe M

    All countries are represented above. These are the top yes men.

  178. The Top 10 spineless yes boys

    Jan W
    Osi L
    Scott K
    Justin C
    Koen
    Joe M
    Ryan T
    Michael J
    Andrew L
    Nick H

  179. Den Hartog should be included, or is it premature? he will surely make it to 1st position

  180. What will Den Hartog and Scott do in Chicago ? Do they have the same role ? Besides being yes men of course .

  181. anonymous

    June 9th, 2012 at 11:17 am

    is this guy going to be fired once Sydney is ready?

    he won’t be moving to sydney. he has quit and is just staying for a month to try flatten out their book

  182. Osi is still registered in a managerial role with the IMC Zug office, according to the Swiss commercial registry. Is that because the Swiss apply different standards when it comes to such tax problems??

  183. @ 10.15am The saving of taxes / non-declaration in Switzerland didn’t really work out for Osi, did it?

  184. This is what happens to a yes man. Osi was evil and corrupt and did bad thing. Of course, he will still have a job somewhere in IMC because he is Robs mate and the biggest yes man of all. Most other people would just be sacked by IMC. Not yes men.

  185. please stop to insult and offend people, that’s not the purpose of this blog. Also, keep in mind that optimizing taxes is not an easy process and the goal is not to increase the personal wealth of the CFO or the management but to improve the overall cash flow of the company, so that everyone can profit from it (e.g. more money left for IT investments). Most likely he was just badly advised by some international tax lawyer.

  186. stop whining like a yes man and get your facts straight. osi was fined for having failed to declare his personal swiss savings account. this is a private matter and has nothing to do with imc’s finances let alone the tax flow of the company.

    do you really think osi was paying for IT investments at imc out of his personal savings account? that has got to be the dumbest comment i’ve read on this website (and there have been many).

  187. the question is if we are just seeing the tip of the IMC iceberg, yes men are very good in hiding things…

  188. At 12:18. Get you facts straight and then get a clue. After that go back to the IMC Finance office and shut your trap. This was a shady personal deal by Osi. How much money did he have in an account outside of Holland? Pretty hard sentence by the AFM so there is a lot more that you don’t know. I know this man and he is every bit awful as people think he is. This fine is not enough for his transgressions.

  189. also Wiet has been fined in the past by some financial regulator, right?
    A sad situation to have 2 members of the board at IMC who could not resist their greed

  190. yes Wiet was caught doing some insider trading in shares of the bank that he was a director/large shareholder of (Kempen). was forced to resign by the AFM. one and a half years later the AFM allowed him to purchase a stake in IMC and become one of its directors. prior to all of that, he filled his pockets as a partner at the Goldman Sachs.

  191. “Optiver has good base of 60k, what do you think is the euro amount which mm earns over 10 year, and corresponding numbers for bank and insurance people ?”

    If your base at a bank / insurer is under 120K, then you’re doing it wrong.

  192. 60k is just for the juniors, the others make much more. Bonus is as well much higher than in a bank. But it is true: as a junior you go better working in a bank or insurer. Seniors at HFT companies make so much because juniors make so little, that’s also one reason of having so many young people at HF trading firms. Reward is not all, one should also evaluate the risks involved.

  193.  
    AFM shouldn’t have allowed an insider trading offender to return to Financial Markets, but maybe his transgression was not serious offence,
     
    There’s of course nothing wrong in filling up pockets as a partner at GS, that’s the whole point about working for GS, duh,

  194. Waarom wordt die nietsnut dan niet ontslagen? Zo te horen is het een inhoudsloze profiteur.

  195. So if your base is 120k in bank, what’s your bonus, how much is that number in mm, what sort of numbers over 10 year period, what about numbers in insurance company,

  196. hard to say, depends on economy, the team where you are, the bank, the country, and most of all yourself. In general the bonus will be lower than a succesfull prop trading house.

  197. Does somebody know if Optiver and Tibra have similar problems with their management, i.e. yes men with no clue of the business running the company?

  198. Don’t tell me you are a graduate with multiple offers and looking to decide which mm is the best bet,

  199. “So if your base is 120k in bank, what’s your bonus, how much is that number in mm, what sort of numbers over 10 year period, what about numbers in insurance company,”

    Apples to apples, positive expectancy favors bank / insurance company to maximize 10 year aggregate pay out.

    But who knows, maybe you’re that 1 in 100 lucky guy. Right place at the right time, kissing the right asses in the right order, all the while giving the secret handshake.

    The question is opportunity cost. Wash out of a mm after 5 years, and what have you got? 5 years of shitty pay, and no book of clients.

  200. Funny. If you’ve been there you know how it works.

    Everyone’s pretty good, just to get in the door.

    Then later, some are in the right place at the right time.

    Not really about being a “good trader”.

    p.s. Don’t tell the grads.

  201. Well GS/DB likes do have average comp of few hundred thousand dollars for combined total of several thousand employees in IB division, mm could match those sort of averages only in very good years,

  202. IMC board away after surgery market watchdog AFM

    Fair financial watchdog AFM Director Osi Lilian of Amsterdam trading house put IMC from office.

    Following is a foreign savings account for the tax withheld, Lilian in 2011 a fine of € 6705 came to be.

    Very strict requirements

    The punishment shows that the regulators stringent requirements on the integrity of management in the financial sector. For though is not to say how much money Lilian on the savings account had been concealed, it would seem the limited size of the fine to indicate a relatively small amount.

    When asked, the AFM says ‘hold back’ with details on individual cases, but it stressed that “doubts about the reliability” sufficient to compel a director to resign.

    The Supervisory Board of IMC, which operates worldwide with over 650 employees, reported the matter to the authorities themselves Lilian. It was no reason for the Supervisory Board’s confidence in him to say.

    Not isolated

    The sanction of the AFM for Lilian does not stand alone. In 2011 Godfried van der Lugt put under the pressure of De Nederlandsche Bank Supervisory Board of ING down after a dispute with the taxman. Also stuikelden directors have withheld equity transactions, such as SNS Commissioner Henjo Hielkema AFM director Anne Willem Kist and Kempem Director Wiet Pot.

    Former Goldman Sachs banker Pot took over a year after his sentence at IMC permission to make his comeback as a director in the financial world. It is not clear whether Lilian also gets that chance, his punishment is for an indefinite period. However, it may remain in IMC in a non-policy-setting function.

  203. ‘Also, keep in mind that optimizing taxes is not an easy process and the goal is not to increase the personal wealth of the CFO or the management but to improve the overall cash flow of the company, so that everyone can profit from it (e.g. more money left for IT investments).’

    So once tax euros stolen from tax collector is funneled to company’s overheads, what happens to the % of money from trading revenue that should have covered the business overheads, that goes to company’s owners right?

  204. leave the judgments to the judges and remember the great contributions of Osi to IMC regarding the rigorous budgeting process.

  205. Who would you like best to have as your boss??

    – Richard den Drijver
    – Brian Hitchcock
    – Ralph van Put

  206. Rob is not going to sell low, that’s why he will not sell IMC right now, but perhaps in the future, who knows…

  207. Flow Traders Securities House for sale

    Flow Traders Trading House is for sale, report it initiates. The owners of Flow Traders, Hodenius founders Roger and Jan van Kuijk and British investors have reportedly Summit together investment bank Lazard in London turned to find a buyer.

    At first only for the minority interest that Summit has in the eight year old trading house, but a good offer, according to sources, the founders are willing (some of) their interest to sell.

    Flow Traders and Lazard do not comment.

  208. Man everybody would wanna sell and monetise long term value of business rather than actually try to run the business in this lousy environment, look at the last financial IPO of carlyle,

  209. This could be an opportunity for Rob and Wiet: why not to buy Flow Traders and make IMC the #1 trading house in Europe?

  210. weren’t etf market making getting squeezed even last year with the noise at nyenburgh and flow

  211. like optiver’s financial statements get filed, what about for nyenburgh, do they have to post out statements too, what are the numbers for them like ?

  212. whats happening with Tibra v Optiver. I understand the hearing has been stood over until today.

  213. Dear traders,

    because of my move from Amsterdam to Frankfurt I have a appartment for sale in Amsterdam at the Oudezijdsarmsteeg (which is Warmoestraat basically) I work for ABNAMROClearing.Its about 80 square metres with a terrace and ask is 289K.Seriuos requests please send me a mail.

    Regards,

    Richard

  214. “anonymous

    June 12th, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    Who would you like best to have as your boss??

    – Richard den Drijver
    – Brian Hitchcock
    – Ralph van Put

    not knowing two of them but knowing Brian, I would presumably go for a random sample of the other two

  215. “companies of sufficiently large size”, how large is large enough, large enough to match the size of your mama’s truck size opening,

  216. it had already been mentioned in this blog that Getco is not making any money in trading. Few days later they fire 40 people. Getco used to run dump strategies where only speed counted, but every dump HF shop can run such strategies in the meantime, that’s why Getco is no more competitive. Another reason is the lack of meritocracy, which does not incentive good traders to stay, and the hiring of very expensive zero-value-added executives.

  217. als je al jaren lekker draait is er minder noodzaak om de rotte appels te verwijderen maar in rustige tijden blijkt beter wie er niets bijdraagt; het is alleen lastig om langzittenden te bedanken voor hun diensten (want meestal willen ze zelf niet inzien dat ze door de tijd zijn ingehaald)

    getco doet hier wat ze allang hadden moeten doen

  218. ‘The remainder, mostly heads of trading and risk management executives, are being reassigned to positions in the firm’s Sydney or Amsterdam offices.’

    Lol, say yes, get reassigned,

  219. adding a zero value UBS guy and then promoting him to CEO as that is future direction of the firm, you can guess what the future direction of the firm is,

  220. ‘The company added that none of the eliminated positions came from its client services business, which it plans to expand to develop more reliable sources of revenue amid the prolonged downturn in trading volumes. ‘

    Oh boy, they actually are drinking the cool aid that coleman is feeding them, talk about when the owners start saying yes to the employee below them, coleman must be heck of genius,

  221. if you enjoy many years running, there is less need to remove the rotten apples but in quiet times better show who contributes nothing, it’s only difficult to langzittenden to thank for their services (usually because they want that they do not see the time overtaken)

    getco doing here what they already have done

  222. “Do you think it’s Getco in particular or the Business it’s been involved with?”

    we are not in 2008, the business as a whole is suffering, but there are still some players who are making lots of money and others (like getco) who are doing particularly bad with no hope of recovery. They are of course aware of it and are trying to get additional revenues from clients. The problem is that they are not an investment bank and will surely fail in this business. Timing was wrong, the owners had to sell Getco some years ago…

  223. De La Rue just prints currency notes, though obviously Euro situation is holding the stock up,

  224. ‘they do not want to be known’

    yah, of course, this clown from spire europe was going on about how late he tries to file the company numbers at the registrar so that competition can’t catch on the size and source of pot, who else,

    the swedish market volumes are the only visible part of the market isnt it,

  225. Sunny is a 25 year old punk would pulled in over $1 mio bonus the last 2 years. Yes men get paid.

  226. that’s quite standard for an average IMC trader, once you are in charge of a good strategy with lots of IT/research people supporting it it’s quite straight forward. The only difficult thing is to be appointed responsible for the strategy, here it helps to be a yes man and to be very lucky

  227. so he’s a market maker in spx, it’s plenty liquid, if he’s making more out of something where other hundred are also trying then the payout is deserved, no,

  228. The SPX guys at Jump made revenues of little over $90 mil in 2011. IMC did not even come close. SPX there probably made 33% of the amount. IMC has automated systems which any trained monkey can run. The brass thinks Sunny is special. He is just up their behind in a big way. Losing him will be no big loss.

  229. Sunny and Scott were butt buddies. So interesting to see what happens when Scott takes over Chicago office of IMC.

  230. ‘IMC has automated systems which any trained monkey can run.’

    yes that’s true, and it’s sad to see how those who designed and implemented these systems are made to a given extent redundant or replaceable, that’s the best way for the managers and the owners to get most of the P&L resulting from the deployment of such systems while underpaying those who made said systems

  231. Man, come on, stop taking a pity at your self, this is capitalism, as an IT guy, your work is done once your system is designed, then you have to move on for new project, you don’t have any patent that you can try claiming the profits generated off that system, so get over it,
     
    If you want royalities, start a new ORC and build a business, good luck,

  232. these web pages are pure propaganda and really bad done, not even a fresh graduate would believe it

  233. “Compared to most of the banking sector, IMC is a flat, non-political and dynamic organization”

    Dynamic? True. Also called “hire and fire”

  234. have any market makers been successful of late getting other market making jobs after getting fired/redundatnt???

  235. Only scrocca hires left overs, rest generally know better, with some exceptions that later prove to be a mistake.

  236. The better ones form their own firms, while the worse wander off into the sunset, wind up doing something else that generally pays them more their supposedly glamorous mm careers.

  237. what’s with obsession about post mm career, you know the choices and the probabilities of it, don’t fret and enjoy life as it comes,

  238. What’s wrong with Scrocca hiring experienced candidates, maybe the candidates are in fact talented and were rid of mostly not being ‘yes man’ with their IMC boss

  239. Nee, als ze echt goed waren dan had de kontenlikker ze gebruikt ten faveure van zichzelf. Het botst juist met de degenen die politiek niet gehaaid genoeg zijn om zelf de yesmanrol te vervullen.

  240. No, if they really were kontenlikker they had used in favor of himself. It just clashes with those who politically shrewd enough to own yesmanrol to fulfill.
     
    Would you like to rephrase the above pls,

  241. Is this new dutchy from Goldman one of Wiets people? Is Lenterman still there? How many other Goldman people are still at IMC?

    apparently Lenterman is still around, although nobody knows what he;s doing. For sure not trading…..
    Probably still conducting his core business ……. playing flight simulator…

    God only knows what competence this man has ….. and maybe even God is in doubt ….

  242. what team, business area, corporate designation, job function was he doing in GS, was he understudy of Lucas van Praag?

  243. that’s speaking to the press, as already noted, he is also part of an association of prop trading firms

  244. To all jealous fucko’s; by cutting trading fees big time he made IMC more in his first year than average trader makes in several years. Now he’s slowing down due health issues.

  245. How exactly did he cut the trading fees and why hadn’t somebody in IMC or other companies like Optiver hadn’t tried this before?

  246. is that trading fees or the clearing fees you are talking about, euronext should be charging the trading fees and abn would be charging the clearing fees ?

  247. So Lenterman got a good clearing fees by forcing two possible suppliers to offer low prices, that’s load of crony bs, you would think GS and ABN would have uniform pricing policies for all their customers, i guess Lenterman deserves his piece of glory then,

  248. “you would think GS and ABN would have uniform pricing policies for all their customers”

    only a moron would think that clearing services are different from all other businesses where bigger means better pricing.

  249. of course bigger means better pricing, talk about stating the obvious, the point implied about Lenterman’s greatness seem to be that everything else remained same, but he got his GS buddies to quote lower, don’t know if it was tradeable, but ABN got fooled into it and thus lowered their prices, it of course wasn’t about being bigger, I’ll leave you to derive your own moronic implication of this,

  250. “ABN got fooled into it”

    fooled??? your making it sound as if ABN is now even losing money on this customer. puh-leaze. you are so naive. all of the bigger firms regularly threaten to replace ABN / GS with similar on the basis of a rival offer. been going on for years. if this is new to you, it means your with some podunk firm. meanwhile the clearing business continues to be a cash cow for ABN. who’s the fool?

  251. If this has been going on for your years, how does that make Lenterman any great, he did what has been done before, play gs against abn to get lower fees,

  252. but it is still not easy to get lower fees, it’s much easier to tell or write about it

  253. why is not easy to get lower fees, all you got to do is get competing quotes and play one clearing party against another ?

  254. On commenting

    Just a few short words on commenting. First of all, there’s no register or login issue created as I hate them as much as you do. Can’t remember passwords anyway. Anonymous comments are welcome, just as all comments are highly appreciated – love’m all. Writing a name makes it easier for people to react, but that is up to you.

    Rules

    Decided not to write complicated guidelines for commenting. Don’t embarrass individuals in general, and if you criticize higher management please remember to stay cool and use arguments. Same thing counts for companies as a whole. The derivatives market is a battlefield, but this website is not. Rude or insulting comments without making a serious point will end up in the thrash can sooner or later.

    Complaints

    If you feel you, or your company, has been treated unfairly don’t hesitate and drop me a mail (jack@amsterdamtrader.com). If I share your feelings, comments may be deleted or altered.

  255. ‘why is not easy to get lower fees, all you got to do is get competing quotes and play one clearing party against another ?’

    ask richard

  256. yeah the leaders, it’s not easy for them to manage out of touch ignorant derivatives traders, also not easy for them to play one clearing bank with another for better fees structure, they are the true leaders, leading by eg,

  257. that’s really amazing how very qualified traders, passing the toughest selection, are treated like ignorant persons, in need for a leader who will lead them by example…

  258. how does passing some tough test make you learned and team player willing to be lead by the leader, you need to be taught to behave and can’t be risked off your tight leash,

  259. Jack you really need a moderator . Your blog is an insult to what Amsterdam once was . Anonymously insulting people has nothing to do with trading .

  260. how is managing bunch of ‘out of touch’ traders an insult to the quality of the leader, that group manager deserves lot more,

  261. dude, you have to be patient, it will take at least other 3 months until they close the Zug office, then you’ll get plenty of IMC news

  262. are you a moron or what? The Zug office is doing incredibly well, this is actually one of the best years from a P&L perspective and the staff is highly motivated and happy

  263. why are you calling me a moron again and putting me down? back to showing off your superiority. since volumes and volatility are down this year it’s a safe bet that the hft part of imc is struggling. imc zug is probably only generating 10% of what chicago and amsterdam are making. but don’t blame the yes men lol. we’ll see in a couple of months who’s right and who was wrong yah,

  264. ‘imc zug is probably only generating 10% of what chicago and amsterdam are making’

    it’s -10%, the office is negative up to now, and we can blame the yes men, not for the trading, as they have no clue on how to make money even if they get the biggest bonuses, but for the high costs they generate

  265. @5:33 ‘the staff is highly motivated and happy’

    ha! clearly HR Zug is writing on this blog,

  266. that’s not HR Zug, those people wouldn’t start their comment with ‘are you a moron or what?’

    what all business is carried out of Zug, what’s location advantage of Zug compared to London or Amsterdam, is it in one of the cantons with 10% tax rate, are they able to route amsterdam revenues through Zug,

  267. Pingback: Fresh mail in Tibra / Optiver case - amsterdamtrader

  268. now we know the real reason of leaving hong kong, there were already rumors of some compliance issue, a pity that a lot of innocent traders had to pay for a mistake of few

  269. IMC remains a member of the HK exchange and will continue to trade the HK market from their Sydney office. One or more reponsible officers will remain stationed in HK (they must be!).

    For you to imply that IMC was forced to fire or move most of its personnel to another country as punishment so to say, whilst the RESPONSIBLE officers can stay, or alternatively, that leaving HK is IMC’s way of protesting against the USD 200k fine (which of the two is the “real reason” btw??), well … more proof of your cluelessness of our industry and of IMC in particular. Rob and Wiet can shrug this off without blinking an eye.

  270. calm down man, 12:39 is either naive or trying to be sarcastically funny, not sure why you are getting so excited about it,

  271. hilgers does not write here, you must be one of these few top IMC traders making millions every year!

  272. isn’t IMC always downsizing its staff in Amsterdam, when has that not been true/rumoured ?

  273. ‘It seems they are not hiring at all at the moment. Interesting’

    most financials are chopping, business is slacking, we are mid way to giant election year and still nothing, what do you think is going to happen in 2013, all these things are right on the headlines of news stand, you still sound fascinated hearing about it?

  274. the problem is that the IMC management is made up of dump people, they try to trade one office from the other in case one needs to be closed 8 weeks

  275. no, they just have to trade some asian product, and Hong Kong closed recently. But this does not make the management smart.

  276. For our Office in Zug we are currently looking for a Trader to work night shift from 1.00 am to 8.30 am.

    In this position, you will learn how to operate our trading systems and monitor P&L. You will face both trading and technical challenges in a distributed and complex trading environment. Your primary responsibilities will be:

    Duties include but are not limited to:

    Starting and monitoring trading strategies as well as the reporting system
    Handling alerts and performing checks on the trading infrastructure as well as fixing basic technical issues
    Reacting according to predefined procedures in case of special events that are not handled automatically by the system
    Contacting responsible person in case risk or P&L triggers are breached
    Ensuring that automated daily reports have been generated by the start of the day shift and debugging in case of technical problems
    Communicating events experienced during the shift to the rest of the trading team

    Required knowledge and skills:

    Technical degree is a must
    Strong IT skills, experience with Linux is a must
    Fluency in English
    Strong troubleshooting skills
    Highly reliable, trustworthy
    Interest in financial markets, but no prior knowledge or experience required
    Advantageous but not required: Familiarity with MATLAB and experience with Linux command line tools

    Success factors:

    Must be able to work productively under no supervision and in an isolated environment
    Having a sense of urgency as well as understanding priorities at various levels is paramount to the success
    Flexible, proactive, hands-on mentality, able to work independently
    Strong written communication skills are vital to the success at this position

    What we offer:

    Work within a dynamic, international as well as continuously improving environment
    Contact with a team of highly experienced, skilled and well-rounded traders who are always looking for the more efficient solutions
    A fun environment – it is not only business
    Work with the latest and the greatest technologies
    Competitive salary, excellent working conditions and numerous perks

    Are you looking for a position that is intellectually challenging? Would you want to work in an international and multicultural environment? Then please apply directly to this position on our website http://www.imc.nl

  277. Wow, what an interesting position, it looks like a joke, only some desperate person could find it exiting…

    Are you looking for a position that is intellectually challenging?
    – In this position, you will learn how to operate our trading systems and monitor P&L
    – Reacting according to predefined procedures in case of special events that are not handled automatically by the system
    – work night shift from 1.00 am to 8.30 am,

    what we offer:
    – Contact with a team of highly experienced-> when at night??

  278. Dude, this cannot be a real job description, here is the intellectual challenge (from the job description):

    “Strong written communication skills are vital to the success at this position”

    Can someone explain how written communication skills are vital for this trivial position?

    Either this is a joke or the IMC management lacks of the vital skills they are looking to find in a night shift trader… LoL

  279. are you guys high or what, if you can find some person to clean up your bloody toilet, you can def find someone to do this night shift, read this, ‘Interest in financial markets, but no prior knowledge or experience required’, any half wit who is attracted to financial market riches would be salivated by this opportunity to enter the industry,

    as for ‘written communication skills’, it clearly states in the job, ‘Communicating events experienced during the shift to the rest of the trading team’, do you think all the communication has to be verbal before 08:30, of course there is going to be written communication,

    this bit is little bit interesting, ‘experience with Linux is a must’, what’s the technology there like,

    and of course this is the most interesting ‘What we offer: A fun environment’, i think they should def delete these 3 words,

  280. you will not learn anything by operating a trading system at night, looking at the P&L screen and writing a report. That’s a 100% monkey job and you do not need any strong written skills to copy-paste some bloomberg news or some screenshot. Why do you think they are looking for somebody to do this? Because no one of the existing traders wants to do this. That’s so obvious. But of course, if you are a zero, that’s a good way to enter the industry, but not sure if you should start with one of the most crappy companies in the industry.

  281. are you sure the learning is absolutely zero for a person of ‘‘Interest in financial markets, but no prior knowledge or experience required’’
     
    in any case, this is just a first step for any half wit who is attracted to financial market riches and look at this opportunity as a first step entry to the industry,
     
    ‘strong written skills’ is just a normal euphemism used in Job specs,
     
    ‘That’s so obvious’ Of course its bloody obvious, your point >?
     
    ‘but not sure if you should start with one of the most crappy companies in the industry.’ Do you have any other alternative for this ‘half wit who is attracted to financial market riches and look at this opportunity as a first step entry to the industry’

  282. yes, for a half-wit IMC is the best way to enter the industry, ideally with a night shift trader job coupled with cleaning the office,

  283. I cannot find this job description on IMC’s website, this confirms that it is a joke. Do you think a serious trading company would publish such a rubbish job description?

  284. Yes, it’s not the whole company, but couple of yes man duds in the company can lead to this situation,

  285. @2:27pm

    chill out man, what’s with all the sarcasm, got no real point to say so start babbling rubbish >?

  286. probably tax efficient to route some deltas over the zug entity during the night, but that would be not completely legal so never mind, imc would never do that, although wasn’t zug setup for that completely?

  287. it could have been a joke because they asked for qualifications which go well beyond the skill set needed to monitor P&L and react according to pre-specified procedures. Moreover, it was sold as an “intellectual challenge” even if it is a 100% money job. They claim to offer a funny environment and the interaction with a top team, all this at night from 1 am to 8 am, sounds quite strange. In the aftermath it looks like a copy-and-paste from some other, and probably more challenging, job position done by some incompetent yes-man. As soon as they realized the unprofessional and misleading description, IMC removed the job posting as it was too embarrassing

  288. why are there so many yes men in IMC? And what is more striking, why are they so incompetent?

  289. isn’t it obvious? the owners like the yes-men, so no-men get fired and in replacement new yes-men like hartford get hired .. i mean the culture of the firm gets determined by CEO, use your head come on,

    they are incompetent because competent people usually prefer not to restrict themselves to saying yes all the time, its hard to maintain cognitive dissonance between what you think and what you do,

  290. ‘it could have been a joke’, no sorry, IMC is not the place which goes around making jokes like those, what is so funny is how quickly the job spec was taken down after it appeared on this blog, that is def a joke there for you,

    ‘qualifications which go well beyond the skill set needed to monitor P&L ‘
    ‘sold as an “intellectual challenge”’
    these are usual euphemism in job market,

    ‘In the aftermath it looks like a copy-and-paste from some other’, yes this looks the best explain,

  291. ‘probably tax efficient to route some deltas over the zug entity during the night, ‘

    what are you going on about ?

  292. “they are incompetent because competent people usually prefer not to restrict themselves to saying yes all the time, its hard to maintain cognitive dissonance between what you think and what you do,”

    well, if they were all so incompetent how come is IMC one of the leading high-frequency trading firms? This is a competitive area.

  293. if the company is so successful there must be some competent people, the problem is that competence is not attributable in IMC, that’s part of their culture (the reason being that results should be decoupled from the individuals, that’s why the word team is so important in IMC). When it comes to slavery work, the team must do it, when it comes to good results, senior management gets most of them them, when it comes to bad results, the team is blamed. Perhaps the absence of meritocracy is also part of the dutch culture, in a normal (US) situation competence gets rewarded and competent people should go up, but not in IMC, where it is actually vice-versa. That’s why most of the employees in IMC, regardless of the office, have problems to accept those half-wits promoted to management, and 98% of IMC managers are half-wits.

  294. “in a normal (US) situation competence gets rewarded and competent people should go up, but not in IMC, where it is actually vice-versa”

    yes, in the Zug office they installed a young dutch MD who has no clue about any of the strategies and products traded in the office. What is even worse is that he does not have any of the quant or IT skills you need to understand and possibly improve/contribute/discuss such strategies, that’s why he even does not care to understand what’s going on from a trading perspective. What does he do: non-sense reorganizations, shuffling of people and teams, administrative work, presentations, meetings, as if all this will have any impact on the business…
    The result? Zug office is negative YTD.
    Who is blamed? the “team of qualified slaves” and the markets.
    What is the expected outcome? firing the team of slaves, closing the Zug office, a big bonus and a new corporate role for the MD who can spend even more time in his beloved Amsterdam office.

  295. yes this is the usual stories in lot of places, get used to it and don’t take it personally,

  296. ‘looks like an impressing company, but what has this to do with IMC?’

    what’s common between impressing company and IMC,

    VOC Mentalitiet

  297. lol, people from other IMC office are worried that this MD might land in their office, haha,

  298. yes, but we are not speaking here about Jensma, who is not involved in trading anyway, but the MD Trading

  299. Koen – that about fits him right. He is the MD who is clueless about strategies and business.

    But he made partner so Rob must love him.

  300. to make partner you need some key skills no? what are his skills or in what is he good? Perhaps people management?

  301. Big emphasis on things going wrong, scaring people and have them feel like shit, nice ppl management.

    Added value for shareholders; Divide et impera.
    Shut down no-men, keep em away from shareholders and cut pay out without nagging employees

  302. good managers must identify things going wrong and instruct subordinates on how to proceed to fix them, and it is normal that employees do not like to hear what goes wrong,

  303. identify what goes wrong? that’s what everybody knows by just looking at the report screen, you do not need a manager for that

    instruct subordinates on how to proceed? people feel really subordinated to somebody who has no clue about trading and gives trivial instructions such as “make more money”, that’s so obvious that you do not need a manager for this,

    if you really want a manager for these tasks please implement the following program and get a Software MD Trading (and save on salary and bonuses):

    Koen_is_in_charge=true;
    while (Koen_is_in_charge) {
    if (PLN<0) {
    message="make money";
    warn("TeamA", message);
    }
    if (PNL4) {
    fire(“Employee1″);
    }
    if (new_payout_target_from_Amsterdam) {
    PNL=getZugPNL();
    payout_ratio=getPayoutRatio()
    bonus_pool=get_new_bonus_pool(PNL, payout_ratio)
    }
    if (PNL>50000000) {
    message=”Zug is doing great!”;
    warn(‘Rob’,message);
    }
    }

  304. ahah, the program is not complete, you forgot one line:
    if (not_yes_man(”Employee1″) ) {fire(”Employee1″);}

  305. When I read some of these comments I get the distinct impression IMC staff. not the managers, are indeed to blame for the current performance.

  306. of course, managers are always right, especially when they have the power to fire and give bonuses

  307. guys its same story lot of place lot of time, yes-man managers causing all sorts of distraction in all sorts of manner, the sad part is that nothing is likely to change even with availability of yes-man smart manager algo, choices are still the same, suck up or pack up,

  308. ‘When I read some of these comments I get the distinct impression IMC staff. not the managers, are indeed to blame for the current performance.’

    care to say which class, manager or slave, do you yourself belong to ?

  309. “the sad part is that nothing is likely to change even with availability of yes-man smart manager algo”

    but at least a yes-man manager algo would not create any expectation or illusion

  310. Pingback: Working in a fun environment at IMC - amsterdamtrader

  311. “well, if they were all so incompetent how come is IMC one of the leading high-frequency trading firms? This is a competitive area.”

    The right question is: how come is IMC one of the leading high-frequency trading firms DESPITE of their management?

    And the answer is: thanks to the slaves, the non-managers, who are bright and work hard, they are kept hungry enough to do an excellent job without any chance to make a career in this company. In fact, how can a company which exists since more than 20 years have an average employee age of 25 years?

  312. “average employee age of 25 is ain’t possible, go do your math again,”

    28? does it change something?

  313. In Prop trader less than 5% of traders are above age 30… now you understand why average age is 25?

  314. Maybe those bright, hard-working 25-year-olds are the problem. Thinking that after two years of setting a vol curve they’re entitled to million dollar bonuses because they’re so special. Thinking that after two years of putting a few parameters in the trading system they can run the company.

  315. “Thinking that after two years of putting a few parameters in the trading system they can run the company.”

    some of them do, just look at the current management

  316. “In Prop trader less than 5% of traders are above age 30… now you understand why average age is 25?”

    yes, but there are obvious implications
    – IMC employees should be ready to look for a new job outside prop trading as 95% will be kicked out in the next 2-4 years
    – they also must cash in a couple of millions in bonuses in the meantime as they will probably need to change industry and might end up in a much worse job given that they have to start almost from scratch again, at a not-so-young age…

    Conclusion: If you can’t make a couple of millions now, better leave and start a new career now

  317. why should they kick out all traders within the next 2-4 yrs? trading teams are small already.

    why should u not find a job at another mm if you did well?

  318. it’s pure statistics, if past repeats, and there are no reasons why it should not, the average lifetime of an IMC employee is 2-4 years. As of now 90% of all IMC employees are there since less than 4 years, meaning that the previous have been eliminated. There are reasons for this: Rob tries to get as much PNL share as possible and this is easier with young (naive) employees, like the current MDs and the current partners. But this is a short sighted strategy, by giving power to incompetent yes men IMC will fail, it is only a matter of time. All successful strategies will be ported to companies with another business model.

  319. ’28? does it change something?’

    is just for traders? what about team leads, management, IT, support staff, are you averaging in their ages too ?

  320. ‘90% of all IMC employees are there since less than 4 years,’

    really, that includes all staff? not just trading,

    ‘All successful strategies will be ported to companies with another business model.’

    don’t you think companies with another business model would have already figured out the strategies by now, or has IMC come up with all new nuclear fusion which nobody has yet figured,

  321. ‘Thinking that after two years of setting a vol curve they’re entitled to million dollar bonuses because they’re so special. Thinking that after two years of putting a few parameters in the trading system they can run the company.’

    no, actually you missed a trick, you land millions for knowing when to set the parameters wrong, now go back to your screen and set parameters while i run the company,

  322. ‘Conclusion: If you can’t make a couple of millions now, better leave and start a new career now’

    what do you think employees who quit last couple of years have been doing ?

  323. ‘why should u not find a job at another mm if you did well?’

    if you did well, why were you kicked out?

  324. “if you did well, why were you kicked out?”

    if you did well, who didn’t like you?

  325. People have failed to mention Moe Hamdan. That guy was the lifeblood of IMC Chicago and he was just kicked to the curb like he was rubbish. They owe most of their success to his network skills, data knowledge, and implementation of infrastructure. Moe Hamdan made IMC what it is today.

  326. once he did what he did there was not need of him anymore, there are several examples likes this. It is also well known that IMC does not pay much for IT staff,

  327. ‘if you did well, who didn’t like you?’

    if you are not likable, why would someone else hire you, nobody wants to start the day looking at someone who they don’t like, much like sitting next to that person while fighting the financial markets the whole day long,

  328. ‘That guy was the lifeblood of IMC Chicago and he was just kicked to the curb like he was rubbish. They owe most of their success to his network skills, data knowledge, and implementation of infrastructure. Moe Hamdan made IMC what it is today.’

    so once he made the IMC chicago success, what’s rob and pot’s incentive to keep him around and hear him say no to them ?

  329. ‘It is also well known that IMC does not pay much for IT staff,’

    nobody in financials do that, they want to hire senior software developers with years of solid experience at ‘Associate’ level in banks, lol,

  330. does it matter, if it’s the policy of rob and pot, then all their yes man managers sing the same tune, we hire and fire, lalala,

  331. Van Boxel was promoted to head of the Chicago office in 2008 after losing 8 mio in Fortis dividends. Visionary!

  332. “Van Boxel was promoted to head of the Chicago office in 2008 after losing 8 mio in Fortis dividends”

    it can happen to loose money in trading, what matters is how much you make in the long term, and the Chicago office made back, by a substantial factor, the loss of 8 million. So, overall, the return is impressive.

  333. WTF? Moe Hamdan was desktop support. He had literally zero PnL impact. I dunno why someone would assert that he had.

    And yes, Robin was not a good trader and took some risks that routed the Dutch office, And no, it was not him that helped Chicago make a bunch of money. Chicago already made tons of money before he arrived. He just had a golden egg land in his lap, showed up to work every OTHER day, and collected his fat paycheck.

  334. how do you define PnL impact? The trader putting some parameters in the system? I believe both Moe and Robin had a lot of PnL impact in Chicago

  335. Even the coffee lady has PnL impact.

    It might be socially inappropriate but people are paid now for work they do now. When circumstances change a company should not take built credentials into account for the decision to continue with someone, it’s already been paid for.

    In this case the guy was overestimating his own capabilities, had to let him go

  336. well, you also pay people for the future, it’s an investment after all and it develops loyalty so that people stay because they feel good at work,

  337. lol, this guy is high, he thinks Rob and Pot wants people to feel good at work, and that they care about loyalty, this industry is mark to market, get real and stop thinking in terms of future and investment,

  338. now you are exaggerating, this blog is not meant to offend people or go into their private lifes

  339. ‘what is Ivo?’

    IVO is a major strategy traded in the Chicago office, it stands for Intraday Volatility Options trading,

  340. jack, this is not fair, where are all the comments about Sunny, Bridget, Ivo,.. and boning.

  341. ‘A famous Frech Rugby Player who recently retired and took up a decent post in the Amsterdam office, with no experience!’

    that sounds, about right.

  342. beautiful cesspool

    http://www.debeurs.nl/beursnieuws/10582237/Inval-bij-Hypo-Vereinsbank-wegens-fraude.html

    Bias Hypo-Vereinsbank for fraud

    Published: Thursday 29 November 2012 10:52

    MUNICH (AFN) – Justice in Germany with great display of power branches of the Hypo-Vereinsbank invaded. More than 60 investigators are investigating large-scale tax evasion. The bank is suspected to have swindled the tax for 124 million euros.

    The Public Prosecution Service, the IRS and the investigators are involved in the research. Exactly how many people they have in mind is not known, but executives of the bank would not suspect, writes the Süddeutsche Zeitung Thursday. Bank staff should in consultation with a stockbroker have withheld income and profit therefrom came, have divided themselves.

    According to the German Ministry of Finance, other institutions examined suspected the same way to have evaded tax. How much money in total is, the ministry could not say.

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