Consequences of exchange merger
There has been a traditional bit of competition between derivative markets Eurex and Euronext. Mostly for the sake of tradition and maybe a little bit for the European Union (look mother, we’re playing competitors). Loaded with employees, slow to adapt and absolutely unfit to combat lean and mean contenders, the exchanges look more like a government institution. The fate of any monopolist.
After the proposed merger of NYSE Euronext and DB only one option market remains in Europe. That sounds like the fees won’t be lowered anytime soon. Maybe the option market could be centralised in one server park, which would save the small market makers some bucks in connection fees and co-location. Wouldn’t bet on it. My guess on what’s going to change : nothing. Dutch options will stay tradable on Eurex (“competition”) and the gap for a new option market stays wide open (TOM). In line with touchy politics, several systems will be kept operational at the same time.
European Style Stock Options
The weekly options on stocks have failed because of the large chunk of transaction costs for especially retail investors. Nevertheless Eurex introduced them as well. Beginning next week the Germans have another interesting idea (which will be copied by Euronext probably) – European style single stock options on a dozen blue chips. No more early exercise of calls and puts, exercising the options is only possible at maturity. The benefit of European style stock options isn’t yet clear to me. I see a lot of opportunities for messing up around ex-dividend dates, when stuck with combined positions of American and European options.
Play-off primary market makers in Aegon, Akzo and Ahold
The play off for primary market makers (PMM) in Aegon and Akzo has ended. The competition for quoting the tightest spreads was won by Optiver in Aegon (silver medal for Nino, bronze for 323). Doesn’t really come as a surprise, with superior giant Optiver beating the dwarfs Nino and 323. The bigger the surprise in Ahold and Akzo. Optiver actually lost the play off from 323 Trading in both Akzo and Ahold. Two licenses were are stake in Akzo, IMC takes the other one. Optiver loses its PMM license in both stocks.
Volgens Haynes is de beurs een bedrijf waar alles draait om volume en schaalvoordelen. Hij laat tijdens het gesprek niet na te benadrukken dat NYSE Euronext en Deutsche Börse samen circa 6500 medewerkers hebben, tegen 51 voor zijn eigen beursbedrijf (en 109 bij Bats, red.).’Hun kostenniveau is daardoor in vergelijking met dat van ons veel te hoog, zelfs als je meeneemt dat zij ook andere diensten en producten aanbieden.’
De beurzen zelf zeggen vaak dat zij meer mensen nodig hebben om aan alle eisen van de toezichthouders te kunnen voldoen. ‘Het spijt me, maar als je daar 150 man voor nodig hebt dan ben je ongelofelijk inefficiënt.’ Volgens Haynes moeten de beurzen hun zaken op orde brengen om concurrerend te blijven. ‘Ze moeten herstructureren.’
any guesses on the new name .. DB NYSE is off the table !
http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2011/02/15/nyseeuronextdeutscheboerse-scramble-for-a-name/?mod=e2tw
Some of the suggested names include:
Stocks-n-Schnitzel
NAZINYSE
Cowen Group To Acquire Labranche & Co
http://news.hereisthecity.com/news/business_news/12372.cntns
Stoktoberfest, sounds attractive for the new name
RDD is even in the comments on the WSJ article. Good to hear he is still alive.
You can’t mess up european options around ex dividend dates because there is no exercise, and pricing is relatively straightforward
good spot @ RDD
Of course he’s alive .. RDD & Co stole so much from VDM, they are alive and kicking ..
‘The benefit of European style stock options isn’t yet clear to me. I see a lot of opportunities for messing up around ex-dividend dates.’
‘You can’t mess up european options around ex dividend dates because there is no exercise, and pricing is relatively straightforward’
Trader jack clearly never read the derivatives book .. american options doesnt have a bloody analytical price .. u can only monte-carlo simulate it ! all messy assumptions on top of half baked Black Scholes assumptions .. natenberg talks pretty much abt european option since its got analytical solution and analytics can be explored.. american option is just a extrapolation of european option results ..
all the mumbo jumbo math bs apart .. all the bs of exercise is stupid .. as a retail/punter i just wanna punt on leveraged basis .. european option is simple and straight .. american option is bs since u prefer selling the option rather than exercise, so it doesnt give juice or exercise mid-way .. its just added complication analytically and in trade life cycle ..
as for dividends, u can ignore as its good enough to assume cum = ex + div .. so if initially u assume div, u pay extra to buy stock as a hedge, but u get that cash back as a div .. stock as a hedge is just an stock volatility replication, nothing to do with div .. pls do correct me if there is a flaw in the above .. i get the feel that somehow i made a mistake in the above ..
the only reason i cud come up why we have american option vs european option when we had black scholes since 1979 is that its old school die hard habbit of going where the liquidity is .. so american options became popular and its been 30 years and we are still stuck there ..
“as for dividends, u can ignore as its good enough to assume cum = ex + div .. so if initially u assume div, u pay extra to buy stock as a hedge, but u get that cash back as a div .. stock as a hedge is just an stock volatility replication, nothing to do with div .. pls do correct me if there is a flaw in the above ..”
You don’t pay WHT?
why is 323 collecting so much PMM .. has Jan bos or whatever that guy’s name is, has he lost touch with reality ?
Hey Jack I hink you mean fate instead of faith buddy
” The faith of any monopolist.”
As for the rest of you – this is comment #13 – a bit surprised nobody else has said something yet….
I am disappointed to see you Dutch tossers still can’t read English, maybe your German is much better
lol
Once you start digging in their annual report more curiosities surface. A few liquidity provider licenses (see pmm’s and cmm’s) are carried at valuation of EUR 6.2 million. That’s a lot of money for something which is supplied for free by Euronext to any interested trading firm. Almost 10% of their total equity consist of this “trading rights” assets.
http://www.amsterdamtrader.com/2009/05/curiosities-in-vdm-balance-sheet-2.html
perhaps that is why?
‘You don’t pay WHT?’
JJ, can you repeat your question .. btw, is that you party squad ?
Re : As for the rest of you – this is comment #13 – a bit surprised nobody else has said something yet….
yah ur ignorant .. stay surprised .. moron ..
‘That’s a lot of money for something which is supplied for free by Euronext to any interested trading firm. Almost 10% of their total equity consist of this “trading rights” assets.’
so lets say 323 gets artificially inflated total equity .. they are private entity .. do they have stupid investors who they have to appease with artificial balance sheet ? i thought i was financed by jan bos and his partner ..
sounds like VDM. we all know what happened to them
‘sounds like VDM. we all know what happened to them’
VDM was a public listed company and the shareholders and management were differnt entities .. 323 has got same person has the shareholder and management .. how can u fucking compare a public company with a partnership ?!
“323 gets artificially inflated total equity ” . What a nonsense. You’re mixing 323 and VDM. 323 may wish that 6.3 million was 10% of their equity 😉
is it more than 10% ?
Give Eelco a call, he will te lell you, but I think you can buy the company for a lot less then 60 million
Jack can you post annual reports for Scrocca and 323 please???????
Reports for firms 323 and Scrocca are not available. They are too small
you can’t compare these two
Scrocca and 323 have to submit annual accounts to the kamer van koophandel like everyone else no?
yes but the requirements for companies such as Scrocca, 323 are substantially weaker than for larger companies (like Optiver, IMC). for example, no indication of profit/loss is required. at the same time, the fact that they remain classified as “smaller companies” does tell you something about their profitability and equity.
‘Give Eelco a call, he will te lell you, but I think you can buy the company for a lot less then 60 million’
the company is just one room with dozen or so traders using actant .. what are u looking to buy .. actant licence or the computers or the traders ?
‘Jack can you post annual reports for Scrocca and 323 please???????’
Scrocca would in plus by few million .. 323 by few hundred thousand .. u wouldnt find any surprises .. its not like IMC, Tibra, Optiver which have much bigger operation and much jucier report to read ..
“Pursuant to the request of Defendants Optiver US, LLC, Optiver Holding BY, and Optiver VOF, and with the consent or Plaintiff U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission, and based on Optiver’s representation that all other defendants consent: This action is stayed until April 18, 2011.”
Street says that nyenburgh is terminating internal development. Is this true?
12:12 … would not surprise me. their earnings are dwindling (was told the company lost money in 2010 but i cannot confirm that) but their expenses have been ballooning since 2009. slashing the it budget is usually the first things that comes out of such a vicious circle. reducing the number of managers less so. after all, they contribute a lot and really need the company cars.
Nyenburgh changed their daytrading setup at the end of 09. They no longer want to have their own skin involved in the swings of the trading results but only provide the trading infrastructure and their cheat fees (clearing fees and exchange fees plus a nice premium). The freelance traders have to fund their operations all by themselves. On top of that Nyenburgh snoopy around the freelance traders´ trades and try to replicate whatever possible. Anyone with half a brain would rather set something up by himself without all those drawbacks.
Johan, you forgot to mention that for the year 2009 management of Nyenburgh raked in 4 times the compensation they enjoyed the year before, despite their earnings dropping by more than 60%.
I heard RDD advised them on how to get the most out of a company. Famous quote: “Shareholder money is not my money!”
RDD…long time not seen. What is he doing, these days?
‘Street says’
pls dont refer to amsterdam’s trading community as Street ..bunch of old timers .. i try avoid calling even london’s trading community as the street ..
‘for the year 2009 management of Nyenburgh raked in 4 times the compensation they enjoyed the year before, despite their earnings dropping by more than 60%.’
entirely explainable .. 2008, they thought they shud have more capital and earn more returns on the capital employed .. now in 2009 the ROE dropped and so they have paid themselves and reduced the capital deployed .. cant u use ur common sense to figure this out ?!
you must be the only person who thinks of reducing the capital through salary payments (instead of, for example, dividend payments). the taxman says thanks.
what happened to Jack, is he skiing?
no I think he just became a father
1.28pm said “The [Nijenburg] freelance traders have to fund their operations all by themselves.”
So can you explain us if it is true management took money/pnl from the freelance traders accounts without permission in 09 and now have been threatened with afm investigation for fraud?
5:39pm How do you come up with that? The 1.28pm poster is correct in stating that the prop traders have been trading with their own money since the end of 2009. Nyenburgh (over)charge them for the “services” provided to them (if I remember correctly they call it “Global Exchange Services” or something like that). Fraud need not enter this equation, but at the very least you have to wonder if you want others to be looking over your shoulder.
But you’re more than happy to elaborate on any AFM investigation into Nyenburgh. I think most traders feel they have been cheated on their bonuses at some time, this could potentially overburden the AFM!
‘you must be the only person who thinks of reducing the capital through salary payments (instead of, for example, dividend payments)’
your classic example typing bs without thinking, let me quote myself, ‘so they have paid themselves’, you obv pay urself back in most tax efficient way .. does that need to be explicitly mentioned knucklehead ?!
7.15: you seriously need to get your facts straight. The SALARY PAYMENTS to NYE management quadrupled in 2009. These get taxed at up to 52% in Holland … not efficient.
Again, in case you did not get the message, I repeat: it is not a discussion about how much money NYE shareholders may or may not have paid themselves in dividends (or similar actions that would reduce the capital at hand). It is about how much in compensation – i.e. salary, bonuses, pensions etv. – was paid to management.
Your ROE fantasies fall flat. Not relevant for this discussion (and off the mark in the case of NYE btw since any and all increases in their capital were due to retained earnings). It was and remains about salaries going up by nearly 300% when profits are down 60% and traders getting the short end of the stick. I remember reading other complaints about NYE management elsewhere on this blog. Maybe others can elaborate?
so mr knucklehead, shud u have trouble understanding any of the abv, just shout!
‘not efficient. ‘
yah might sound incorrect to be tax inefficient .. but u dont have all the contract details in their partnership .. have u knucklehead ?
‘get your facts straight.’
i have no facts, i am just reading this blog for info on nyenburgh,
‘I repeat’
can u repeat again, ur point got lost in ur rambling
‘ROE fantasies fall flat.’
shud u have trouble understanding the abv, just shout!
‘and off the mark in the case of NYE btw since any and all increases in their capital were due to retained earnings’
the point .. the retained earnings could have been used as compensation but was retained hoping for good ROE .. that didnt happen in 2009, so the capital was taken out of biz .. what cant u understand of this ?
‘traders getting the short end of the stick.’
traders have discretionary bonus, so there is nothing like short end of the stick for them, they are welcome to pack their bags and leave .. they wudnt be missed, thank you vm,
‘I remember reading other complaints about NYE management elsewhere on this blog.’
are you one of those overpaid traders at NYE not finding any other trading house willing to overpay you ?
‘so mr knucklehead, shud u have trouble understanding any of the abv, just shout!’
talk abt irony .. kindly look up the dictionary if you dont understand what irony is ..
1. Retained earnings wouldn’t be used for (future) compensation other than to shareholders – the employees were already paid in the past. So unless all managers are shareholders, it is not wise to reduce the capital (for whatever reason) by means of (extra) salary payments. A dividend would be far cheaper tax-wise.
2. I just thumbed through the 2009 annual report for Nijenburg and whomever wrote that stuff about management appears to be spot on. Salary expenses for management and supervisors were 1.8 million, up from 500k. Net profit for the company was just shy of 2 million, which is indeed down 60%. Seems like quite a substantial reward for management to me.
3. Equity in the company has actually INCREASED (with the 2009 profit); it appears no capital was taken out. No dividends were declared. So “anonymous” seems to be blowing smoke in order to justify management’s compensation?! ROE went down dramatically in absolute and relative terms. End of story.
4. Total salary + bonus expenses of 6 million on a staff of around 80. Average pay per employee is therefore around 75k and this number is heavily skewed due to management’s compensation. Take management’s cut out and what’s left are just the base salaries I think. Hardly my definition of “overpaid traders”. All Options on the other hand … 🙂
5. I do not work for Nijenburg, but I know some of their employees. Let’s just say I was not surprised by some of the comments on this blog.
6. Seems to me “Otto P.” was using sarcasm, not irony. Big difference.
You don’t only hold the same opinion as Otto, you also write in the same style. But I like it. You could be a bit more harsh in your judgement: let ‘m bleed.
Dear client,
Please be aware that there is a calculation problem with all indices
Cash market Status webpage link: http://marketstatus.production.euronext.com/cash.htm
Regards
NYSE Euronext Indices
‘Hans’
Are you Mr Corsten ?
‘Retained earnings wouldn’t be used for (future) compensation other than to shareholders’
Management & co can do watever the fuck they want .. its a private fucking company .. of course everything would be kept within the legal boundaries ..
‘it is not wise to reduce the capital (for whatever reason) by means of (extra) salary payments’
do you know all the details of their contracts/partnership structure ?
‘Seems like quite a substantial reward for management to me.’
You sound like non-managemen guy, get over it and open ur own company and be your own management !
‘So “anonymous” seems to be blowing smoke in order to justify management’s compensation?! ‘
i am not blowing smoke .. i was guessing what mgmt might have done .. like i said above .. its management .. they can do whatever the fuck they want .. you dont like it, kindly pack ur bags and pls leave ..
actually now i seem to realise whats wrong with you Euro-types .. you guys are so used to socialist bs abt rights .. guys you are in the most capitalist part of economy .. there is nothing really more capitalist than trading .. so kindly get over the fact that somebody is shafting you .. just thank them for using the lube ..
‘ROE went down dramatically in absolute and relative terms. End of story.’
talk abt stating the obv,
‘Take management’s cut out and what’s left are just the base salaries I think. Hardly my definition of “overpaid traders”. ‘
sorry, its ex-overpaid traders who are now complainting abt their management on a blog rather than finding another place which could keep overpaying them ..
‘All Options on the other hand … ‘
wats that suppose to mean ?
‘“Otto P.” was using sarcasm, not irony. Big difference.’
that guy was saying ‘shud u have trouble understanding any of the abv, just shout!’ .. irony was the fact that he was rambling without understanding all the important points .. he should have just asked since he was having trouble understanding all those points .. instead he’s rambling abt asking him for explaination ??! thats the irony .. get it ?
‘shud u have trouble understanding any of the abv, just shout!’
good god! this knucklehead guy has got to be the dumbest poster on this blog ….. hands down …… and that’s saying a lot
i sincerely hope he will one day have his own company and watch management burn his equity …… “within legal boundaries” of course
we should take a poll how many here have received EXTRA compensation out of the company’s equity b/c the company wanted to reduce its capital. (11.27 am) count me out!
otto, hans, please put him out of his misery!
count me in!
me too!
dumb question, but any estimates on who’s spending up the most on stat arb research at the moment, as opposed to latency reduction?
‘i sincerely hope he will one day have his own company and watch management burn his equity …… “within legal boundaries” of course’
if i have my own company, i’ll be the management, is that too hard for you to guess moron,
and yah i’ll be doing watever i want .. its my fucking company, piss off now ..
‘dumb question’
yah, agreer ..
answer more dumb than question.
no traders here, only tech nerdo.
‘answer more dumb than question.’
ur response more dumb than the answer, piss off now to ur strupid trading screen, check if ur meeting the quoting obligations, and if u got hit on 100 lots,
I heard All Options raised salaries to all employees…is it true?
any detail?
Anyone heard about the mm firm Liquid Capital? Any comments on this firm?
@ Liquid capital
few anecdotes
– they hired Dr Pneuman or something from Saen as head of single stock options .. this guy had dropped a whole ton of money at Saen getting squeezed in Volkswagen .. this guy was rumoured to be again involved with losses on BP at Liquid Capital
– they were hiring 10 trainee quantitative traders in Syndey and they were planning to retain only 1 – 2 after 6 month probation period
– numerous people critizing liquid’s trading, management philosophy ..
shouldnt be on the top of a candidates list i think,
Was Dr Pneuman from Sean or VDM ?
Liquid is a good company. Chirss and Gregg Siepmann built the company from scratch. (More Chriss than Gregg). Trade some of the biggest products on Eurex and more recently dominate the SPX pit.
There are going to be disgruntled traders who would rather celebrate queens day and are pissed coz pneuman got a job while they landed in the dumpster. That does not make liquid a bad place to work at. Some of the good companies out there have been founded by Liquid alumni.
Is it true that Liquid reduced or shut down completely some desks, e.g. the ETF desk?
details on all options salaries?
since no one in the industry is getting a bonus anyway…
yeah, or shitty bonus that I cant buy another rolex
“[Liquid] dominate the SPX pit”
I thought pit trading was dead?!
no one has mentioned that optiver ceo has quit last week – randal meijer
last time I checked Jelle Elzinga was still the CEO of Optiver ….
“Is it true that Liquid reduced or shut down completely some desks, e.g. the ETF desk?”
IMC and 1 other “own” that market in Sydney.
p.s. Trading screen looks fine. Good work low paid tech nerdos…
Liquid is fuken awesome.
All you haters trying to piss into the source of pure liquidity better watch out. That pretty flower will mess you up.
You’re not in the ETFs, liquid flower child.
Why not huh? Too slow? Or are baskets just too complex? Too many moving parts? boohoo.
that’s like, way harsh man.
We only just got edge highlight color on option trades with sufficient edge. Don’t be mean. You big meanie.
so what about afm – Nyenburgh management investigation?
Randal Meijer was ceo, didn’t quit but seems to be put on non active. (whatver that might mean). Johann K takes on his role for now.
I thought Johann K has been CEO for years already?
The story about the VW loss is true (and common knowledge by now). I do not want to comment on the rumours about big losses at Liquid. But there is a reason why I was demoted recently. At least some people still buy my bs stories about the VW desaster and how I was completely not responsible for it.
Johann is the founder and chairman .. randal was the ceo for day-today .. i am using was .. its time for him to pack up, its going to be difficult for optiver .. and he is involved with that cftc case too,
Meier just another bad apple thrown to the side. Time to crank up the coupon capture machine.
Btw, does anyone know if this was related to the cftc case?
Listen, you’ve got to give credit to Optiver: they took their time but with Meijer and van de Ven gone they will have reduced their top management head count with 40%, more or less the same as the reduction in general headcount.
‘Listen, you’ve got to give credit to Optiver:’
they are well run place, no doubts abt that ..
Why was Frank demoted? BP loss?
wat was he demoted to ?
From HoT Single Stocks to Senior Trader Single Stocks. He is no longer considered significant management when you look at the FSA website.
>”You’re not in the ETFs, liquid flower child.
>
>Why not huh? Too slow? Or are baskets just too complex? Too many >moving parts? boohoo.”
~”that’s like, way harsh man.
~
~We only just got edge highlight color on option trades with sufficient ~edge. Don’t be mean. You big meanie.”
I see no option edge unless you’re under 6ms New=>Ack.
How long does it take to draw the colors?
Squeeze that tech nerdo. yeah.
Anyone have an update on Randal Meijer’s right hand man and co defendant Christopher Dowson?
Who has become Head of Single Stocks in Liquid then? Any idea?
And why would you keep a disfunct Head Trader as Senior Trader if he sank a few million? Does it not make sense to fire him?
None of you putzes have the first clue about Liquid they are actually making more money than optiver+imc+flow now …. no sorry just the QTG division is already more profitable never mind the rest of the firm
Rest of the firm appears to be posting 10 lots deep in the book.. So that’s meeting MM obligations, without any of that messy fill & hedge business… Seriously, a buy side order would have to trade *througn* Tibra, then Optiver, then maybe Susq before touching any of Liquid’s orders [ASX].
Liquidity of last resort? Or just too slow.
Just of out of curiosity, how do you know Liquids quote is deep in the book? Quoting is anonymous right?
‘no sorry just the QTG division is already more profitable never mind the rest of the firm’
can u post some actual number rather just farting ..
Liquid made GBP 25m in 2009, up from 12m in 2008 (heavy losses in VW … maybe that’s why Pneuman fits in?). So yes they made more than Optiver (once – in 2009; Optiver netted almost 300m in 2008), but to suggest that based on a single observation they are superior, that’s just preposterous. A lot of the criticism echoed in recent comments deals with their on exchange activities. A substantial part of the firm’s business comes from otc trades. Don’t forget that hey have their own brokerage business (which is separated from their mm operatiors by *immensely thick* Chinese walls, i.e. a few yards away).
@anonymous February 25th, 2011 at 2:44 pm”From HoT Single Stocks to Senior Trader Single Stocks. He is no longer considered significant management when you look at the FSA website.”
It is interesting, how rude people are in this blog and how quickly people come up with hand waving explanations without doing proper research. Anybody who cares, can still call these guy there (which we do frequently as we deal with them almost on a minute to minute basis.
It is also interesting how people piss on each other for nothing and worse: out of the blue. This page resembles more something like the “Most hated people” than informing about the trading community.
What is my point?
FSA web page, companies:
Basic details for:
192744 – Liquid Capital Markets Limited
Current status: No longer Authorised
Effective Date: 09/11/2010
Tied Agent:
Undertakes Insurance Mediation:
Registered under Money Laundering Regulations:
Address: 4th Floor
95 Queen Victoria Street
London
EC4V 4HN
Phone:
Fax:
Email:
Website:
44 020 7429 0700
44 020 7429 0701
No email address supplied
As a broker, we constantly talk to Liquid and they are making markets and are still alive. So obviously, Liquid Capital Markets has deregulated their business. Since that means any important management personnel won’t be regulated either, they also will be deregistered.
Unless Liquid is out of business … but then whom do we talk to again during the day?
Oh and btw, one more thing to say about the BP loss (got all a bit long with thatFS stuff). No idea, where that comes from, but as far as I know, they trade Swiss, German and French equity options . BP is a UK listed stock. I’ll ask them for a BP market, but I guess they do not trade it.
Pretty difficult to lose money in something you do not trade.
But guys, just go on and amuse me with your funny childish talk and creating rumours out of nothing.
why would they be absent from uk markets? your company is based in london, you even have operations in asia and the usa but you neglect the home turf? does not make any sense to me. go ahead and ask them for a bp market. however the real question is did they trade bp last year? according to some brokers who posted on this blog last year, they were scrambling to get out of bp positions.
Why don’t you ask them yourself instead of spreading rumours and making assumptions. And why would we not talk to them on UK stocks, which we don’t. That is a pretty good indication for me that they do not trade UK full stop.
“Why” is another question that you should ask Liquid. May be they don’t trade it because it is really illiquid.
And you know how ths works:
Gossiper 1: “Heard a rumour that company XYZ lost boat loads of money”
Gossiper 2:”Must be BP, where else”
Gossiper 3 “They lost a boat load on BP!”
Now that is how propaganda works as well: You tell a lie often enough until everybody believes it and becomes a “known fact” Or at least noody really believes there is nothing as there is “a fire, where there is smoke”, not considering that the smoke is fake.
Like Osama bin Ladin being a close friend to Saddam Hussein and them plotting to go against the US.
If you want to find out, do some research instead of sticking your finger into the air (or somewhere else) and muttering “Yeah, I know it all”.
sounds like this Pneuman guy talking. genuinely hard to believe a broker would go to such lengths to defend Liquid Capital and their H.O.T. on a Saturday afternoon! i take it the “rumours” of Liquid shutting down desks are just that: pure gossip? no smoke, no fire, right?
‘What is my point?’
try to keep ur point brief next time .. ur rambling on and i think pointlessly ..
‘But guys, just go on and amuse me with your funny childish talk and creating rumours out of nothing.’
nobody said there are losses .. there were rumours of losses at Liquid due to BP .. feel free to correct and not preach !
‘does not make any sense to me. ‘
maybe because ur stoopid ?
‘That is a pretty good indication for me that they do not trade UK full stop.’
Does that mean they didnt trade BP last year ?!
‘Gossiper 3 “They lost a boat load on BP!”’
It didnt happen this way on this blog .. everybody knows the losses were rumours and there is no way to confirm it !
how stupid do you think we are ?
‘Now that is how propaganda works as well’
now that is how rambling works .. ur pissing off everyone with ur pointless bs ..
‘“Yeah, I know it all”.’
like i said, pointless made up bs .. can u do some research and show me who said that on this blog .. fucking annoying little nagging bitch u are .. piss off ..
@ 7:41
he is quite right. As is the case with my company, one disgruntled ex-employee keeps bitching to everybody about something on this blog. And now the communis opinio on here is that it actually happened that way, and they are all saying, “must be true since i read that before on this blog”, while in fact it is total BS. You guys should be a bit more careful believing everything that is said here before making big accusations.
@ 9:07
and what company / event would that be? “Tibra stealing Optiver’s code”? “All Options is a crap employer”? “RDD & Pneuman ruined VdM”? The list goes on and on!
“Just of out of curiosity, how do you know Liquids quote is deep in the book? Quoting is anonymous right?”
Quoting is not anonymous for ASX [Sydney] derivatives.
10 lot Liquid. bottom of book. late & wide. just like a big broker :o)
Mate, if I wanted to explain all the details of our business to the rest of the world I would have done so in my previous post. Instead, I focus on making money, which is going very well so far this year. You should do the same instead of making wild accusations about things that are none of your business. Do you realize you can hurt companies by doing that? That’s other peoples money and jobs you we are talking about here!
quote depth info is ** public information **.
nothing proprietary.
it would be foolish to post non-public information on a blog.
but, in a zero sum game .. what harms you, helps me.
interesting to get a response on my observation.
we are targeting the competiton this year.
Liquid is not it.
‘you guys should be a bit more careful believing everything that is said here before making big accusations.’
nobody takes statements on this blog on its face .. its a blog meant for rumours .. nothing can be verified !
nobody is making any accusations .. how stoopid do u think the blog readers are ??!
‘Mate, if I wanted to explain all the details of our business to the rest of the world I would have done so in my previous post.’
if u dont have any info/rumour, then stop wasting readers’ time and just piss off ..
‘Instead, I focus on making money, which is going very well so far this year’
this is a classic example of small penis syndrome ..
‘Do you realize you can hurt companies by doing that? That’s other peoples money and jobs you we are talking about here!’
I think i have said it enough number of times .. if you want censorship, piss off to china .. nobody will miss u here ..
about t h i s stupid.
and mostly with > 20ms latency.
kick your tech nerdo today!
‘it would be foolish to post non-public information on a blog.’
not really .. u can say its ‘rumoured’ and then what u write is not information any more ..
‘in a zero sum game’
this is not a zero sum game .. if u dont understand why, just ask !
‘we are targeting the competiton this year.
Liquid is not it.’
another small penis syndrome ..
‘Instead, I focus on making money, which is going very well so far this year’
that’s what she said.
‘in a zero sum game’
‘this is not a zero sum game .. if u dont understand why, just ask !’
ok, y?
holding deltas, like a mom n pop ?
an outstanding oportunity?
the secret to wealth that “they” don’t want you to know?
act now, and you too can create wealth through the stock market?
I do not believe Liquid is slow in their on-exchange trading. They have the fastest system. It is called Reactor and it operates in microseconds and nanoseconds.
‘that’s what she said.’
lol ..
‘this is not a zero sum game .. if u dont understand why, just ask !’
ok, y?
its like poker .. u wud think its zero sum but if there are suckers sitting on the table then the fight is to strip them quickly rather than fighting with ur competitors on strictly zero sum hands .. get it ?
‘I do not believe Liquid is slow in their on-exchange trading. ‘
who the hell are u ?
I have to agree. Reactor is the fastest trading system around. Round trip times in the sub-millisecond area.
You mean the round trip time between 2 transisters 1 micrometre apart. I could buy that. Definitely possible if configured correctly.
‘Reactor is the fastest trading system around’
do u know the speeds of F1 used by Optiver or the system used by Tibra ?
what do you mean “… Optiver OR the system used by Tibra”?? Weren’t they identical?
‘Weren’t they identical?’
to what extent was the code stolen ?
Does Frank still play computer games during trading hours?
The question should read “Does Frank still bother trading or does he only play computer games?”
why is frank still in trading employment after VOW losses ?
Who gives two shits about Optiver, Dowson orMeijer? Optiver is no longer top tier MM, network is shitty and slow and this is evident by trading profits in the toliet.
@12.57 Because he holds a PhD in Chemistry
“ts like poker .. u wud think its zero sum but if there are suckers sitting on the table then the fight is to strip them quickly rather than fighting with ur competitors on strictly zero sum hands .. get it ?”
obviously that is zero sum for the table as a whole…
butt yeah
negative for the suckers.
positive for the MMs.
trouble is, I see a lot of MMs, and less and less suckers.
cost of competing approaching limit of sucker revenue.
damned arms race logic.
“I do not believe Liquid is slow in their on-exchange trading…”
Curious as to why they’re at the back of the queue, and often several price steps deeper. I’ll assume it’s part of a broader quant strategy ..
‘Who gives two shits about Optiver, Dowson orMeijer? ‘
lots of people including myself give lot of thoughts to what they are upto, u can piss off ..
‘Because he holds a PhD in Chemistry’
haha, very funny,
‘cost of competing approaching limit of sucker revenue.’
obv .. thats why VDM, Saen, Alphabay are all out of the race .. its very competitive .. if ur not careful, even though ur not sucker, u’ll be had for lunch ..
‘Curious as to why they’re at the back of the queue, and often several price steps deeper. I’ll assume it’s part of a broader quant strategy ..’
sounds similar to why GS is there as CMM everywhere ..
I thought Liquid ahd many ex-citadel dudes working there these days who make massive $ ?
can anyone substantiate that ?
yes. liquid has dudes.
Ex-SocGen Trader Agrawal Gets 3 Years in Prison for Theft (2)
2011-03-01 00:42:32.988 GMT
(Updates with judge’s comment in third paragraph.)
By Bob Van Voris
Feb. 28 (Bloomberg) — Former Societe Generale SA trader Samarth Agrawal was sentenced to three years in prison for stealing the bank’s high-speed trading software.
A federal jury in Manhattan in November found Agrawal, 27, guilty of theft of trade secrets and transporting stolen property in interstate commerce after a two-week trial. U.S.
District Judge Jed S. Rakoff sentenced him at a hearing today.
“In the case of this defendant, we have an essentially good guy who did something very bad,” Rakoff said in ordering a prison term of less than the 63-to-78 months called for under federal sentencing guidelines.
Rakoff said he gave Agrawal credit for accepting responsibility for his crime and for having led an honest life before the theft. In addition to the prison sentence, Rakoff sentenced Agrawal to two years of supervised release. Agrawal may be deported to his native India on his release from prison, Rakoff said.
At trial, Agrawal testified under questioning by his own lawyer that he shared information about Societe Generale’s trading software with a Manhattan hedge fund, Tower Research Capital LLC, where he hoped to create a similar system. Rakoff said at the time that he was “puzzled” by Agrawal’s testimony and that he assumed it was part of a “sympathy defense.”
Admitted Crime
“He was essentially admitting all of the elements of the charge as the court interpreted the indictment,” Rakoff said today.
Agrawal also testified that his superiors at Societe General encouraged him to work at home because spending too many nights and weekends in the office would raise “red flags” for company security. He said that was why he printed copies of the computer codes in June 2009 to study at home.
Agrawal was hired in 2007 in New York by the Paris-based bank to be a quantitative analyst. He was promoted to trader and given access to the company’s high-frequency trading software in April 2009, according to prosecutors.
Later, during 10 to 12 meetings with Tower executives, he shared some aspects of a Societe Generale trading program called DQS, for “distributed quotation system,” Agrawal said. He said he used Societe Generale’s codes because he wanted the job at Tower and because he would have had to build a similar system once hired by the hedge fund.
“That is SocGen’s trade secret and I stole it,” Agrawal said in a statement to Rakoff before he was sentenced. “And I should not have.”
The case is U.S. v. Agrawal, 10-cr-00417, U.S. District Court, Southern District of New York (Manhattan).
look out Tibra – don’t drop the soap….
Optiver vs Tibra is a civil case you idiot.
“Optiver vs Tibra is a civil case you idiot”
Correct – there is no possibility of anyone going to jail. Think of it like the difference between OJ Simpson’s wrongful death suit (found guilty) and his criminal trial (found not guilty). The prosecution in the criminal trial needed to prove their case to a much higher standard than the civil trial.
Tibra’s evidence is due 31st May.
Tibra should use the Chewbacca defense.
civil or criminal is not really the point here
the point is there is now a precedent (albeit in a very different jurisdiction) of courts coming down hard on theft of proprietary trading systems
they might not be going to gaol but they may well be opening their corporate wallets
optiver will be smiling
Not just a different jurisdiction, but an entirely different case. The SocGen guy was caught red-handed, and confessed completely. Optiver have a very vague and inferential / circumstantial case. The transcripts make for very interesting reading.
which particular transcripts make for the most interesting reading?
The ones that are copyrighted and can’t be reproduced publicly make for the most interesting reading.
If you lucky enough to have a media licence you can get them for 60c per page, otherwise it’s something like $12 per page.
‘courts coming down hard on theft of proprietary trading systems’
the evidence was overwhelming and they gave him 36 months rather than 72 months as mandated .. thats coming down hard ?! how stoopid are u ??!
“Tibra should use the Chewbacca defense.”
Ladies and gentlemen of the supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider:
This is Chewbacca.
Chewbacca is a C++ coder from the planet Tibra, but Chewbacca lives at the planet Optiver.
Now, think about that. That does not make sense!
Why would a C++ coder — an eight foot tall C++ coder — want to live at Optiver with a bunch of two foot tall Duchies?
That does not make sense!
But more importantly, you have to ask yourself: what does that have to do with this case?
Nothing.
Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense!
Look at me, I’m a lawyer defending a major market making company, and I’m talkin’ about Chewbacca.
Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense.
None of this makes sense.
And so you have to remember, when you’re in that jury room deliberating and conjugating the Cointegration Proclamation… does it make sense?
No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense.
If Chewbacca lives at Optiver, you must acquit! The defence rests.
this is fucking brilliant,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense : )
If you can’t click and hit, then acquit!
If you hammer 10 lot shit, then aquit!
If you can’t find her clit, then aquit!
If you find her dick, then aquit!
LOLROFL ;-D
new topic please
something about the Optiver-Tibra case?!
or about the optiver-CFTC case?!
“something about the Optiver-Tibra case?!
or about the optiver-CFTC case?!”
Nothing happening in either of them:
Optiver CFTC has been stayed until April 18th.
Next hearing in Optiver Tibra is June 10th.
Is there a time limit when either of these cases have to be finished by?
‘Is there a time limit when either of these cases have to be finished by?’
what do u think dodo ?
proceedings are to conclude before all named principals have fled to foreign lands, setup shadowy nameless shops, and returned to quietly arbing the piss out of slow moving “investment” banks, whilst simultaneously supplying endless liquidity to dumbass directional the date-raider morons…
date-raider………….never heard that one
day trader
Wait, so Dowson, Van Kempen or Meijer aren’t in jail yet?
NEW-TOPIC
can CFTC send them to jail ??!
NEWD-TOPIC
JACK?!
why dont one of u lazy mother fucker write a new topic and send it to JACK for publishing
uhhh, because I/we don’t have the sources?!
Jack is a lazy ass. Where is the story of Randal being fired and Dowson hiding out? What about a story on Bastiaan Van Kempen going to work for Celoxica(a company optiver purchased hardware from while he was ceo) and recruiting developers to come over from optiver?
This is far from over friends.
‘uhhh, because I/we don’t have the sources?!’
then shut the fuck up,
‘Where is the story of Randal being fired and Dowson hiding out? What about a story on Bastiaan Van Kempen going to work for Celoxica(a company optiver purchased hardware from while he was ceo) and recruiting developers to come over from optiver?’
why dont u write the story and send it to Jack for publishing ?
Randal hasnt been fired.
hasnt Randal been fried.
Looking for punts on which is the least efficient market or product.
(other than recruitment)
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/03/02/judge-unexpectedly-imprisons-goldman-programmer/
another case of former employees being imprisoned after stealing code. Watch out Tibra…….
“another case of former employees being imprisoned after stealing code. Watch out Tibra…….”
Once again, Optiver v Tibra is CIVIL case, it is not a CRIMINAL case. The court has no power to send anyone to jail.
once again the point is not whether or not it is a civil or criminal case, rather that it is another precedent of a court coming down very hard on industrial theft
Once proven guilty and the company would suffer but not the thiefs personally, the fact that they enriched themselves along the way could lead to a second – criminal – case
What is the basic pay at Nyenburgh, Flow Traders, All Options, Tibra, Optiver, IMC?
Are they all the same?
Nye pays the most now mate, 50k euros
Optiver used to be at 60, not sure anymore. Others 40k.
Optiver is still at 60k. Australia is 100K
Interesting, so Asia – Pac offices pay more? I was under the impression that Hong Kong and Singapore pays less. Heard comments that IMC and Flow Trader pay shit over there.
there is no salary @ nyenburgh
Low pay with discretionary bonus.
Company has minimal exxposure — to you.
how low is low? 40.000 Euro with % of performance sound within reason to me.
40 euro doesnt go a long way in Hong Kong.
its 60 k euro for ams and 100k aud for sydney .. similar purchasing power .. they wudnt have an arbitrage within offices for the simple reason that lot of staff move within different location inside the company ..
this 60/100 is for optiver .. dont know abt nyen
if you care about your salary you’re in the wrong business .It is all about your bonus . But unless you’ve been to a top league university it is useless to try to get in .
‘top league university’ my ass
I’ve been around for more then a decade without any PhD
I wonder if johan kaemingk ever went to university
the guy just combines street smartness with farmer smartness
How does it work with these firms then? You get a basic salary and then end of year bonus? Other than Optiver, anybody know how much each firm pays to start out with?
I’ll pay you 40 euro if you bring me coffee for a year
I don’t see how anyone could live on anything less than 750,000 Euro or USD bonus
‘I don’t see how anyone could live on anything less than 750,000 Euro or USD bonus’
here we go again with the classic small penis syndrome .. people shud use the fucking weekend to get laid and keep their frustrations away from the blog’s readers
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